GABA is another one to look into.  3-5g (base on tolerance) before resistance training raises GH levels, and another 3-5g before bed helps ease you into sleep (and further GH release).Also, for those taking Beta Alanine p/w, it can compete with Taurine -- and Beta Alanine will win at the receptor sites, rendering the Taurine dosage useless.Cory

From what Ive read it appears the production of GABA is part of what causes the relaxation of the CNS. Which would seem like a bad idea pre-workout. This is why I now think the Taurine messes me up so much.

I was going by a August 2009 Muscle & Fitness article (had cited sources) called "Hormone Helpers".That dosage and timing were based on studies.  I don't have the issue in front of me, but they gave the actual GH output during training, as I recall.http://staging.muscleandfitness.com/newsstand/68I have been using GABA pre-workout ever since.  I take it with 6mg Melatonin, as the article suggests, to blunt GH breakdown.  Nary a problem.Cory

My reasons for trying this: I dont take any stimulants (which is where the convo on Jim Laird's show sprouted from) beyond 2-3 cups of coffee a day, but I do feel like Im pretty wired, running on nerves all day at work and dont feel exactly rested or relaxed coming into train after work. Even though Im using CBL I find my strength isnt improving as much as it could/has in the past on other diets, and occassionally Ill have a day where Im only getting a single with a weight I did for 3-5 the weeks prior. Thoughts? Experiences? Have at it!

Per the highlighted phrase above, you were having some issues with strength & progression before the supps, saying that you were having a dropoff... my point being I don't think the supps would make you weaker in any way, but that whatever the root of the problem is still exists.  It is possible that you would be doing even more poorly without them, or that they are not doing anything at all, but making you re-gress... anything's possible, but I don't know that I buy it.I'm not sure if you are DB or SA, but without any further info, my go-to here would be more food or some other diet tweak... drop the supps and see if things get better, and I will stand corrected.

Thanks for the input Marty. Its good to get called out on these things. I certainly try to be as rigourous as I can when adding a new supplement/combo to see what their true benefits are. The problem here is that instead of one bad day every few weeks Ive basically had nothing but terrible training sessions since adding these supplements. Gotcha. Im going to train without them tonight and see how I feel. Currently Im using CBL SA and at the moment Im not losing any fat. Ive also gone from about 300grams of carbs where I was losing fat and ironically maintaining/gaining strength, to about 500-600 where Im holding pretty steady but not gaining any strength. Been at this higher level of carbs for a few months. Also about the time I added the extra carbs in I also added creatine. Dont know why I bother with creatine actually because Ive tried it multiple times and never got anything out of it. I guess I just thought a higher dosage and the extra carbs would help. ::) All good in theory!

Sounds like a good plan.  So if the 300g was working, it seems that that was your 'sweet spot.'  I would run - don't walk - back to that level and maybe tinker with the fat and protein macros some to get everything aligned and keep the overall kCals coming in.  As for the supps, if it is more of a 'feel' thing that is lagging, then I agree definitely drop them and see what your mood, etc. is and then make your decision.  If the fire doesn't come back without them, then there are still things you can look at.Good luck!

I have been experimenting with these too for a while now. I have felt a bit of depression for the first 10 minutes or so of the day upon waking and am wondering if these supps are pushing some chemistry too far out of whack. Any ideas?

I have been experimenting with these too for a while now. I have felt a bit of depression for the first 10 minutes or so of the day upon waking and am wondering if these supps are pushing some chemistry too far out of whack. Any ideas?

How are you timing them? So far Ive been fine since putting them only after training. When I was taking the tyrosine in the morning and taurine in the afternoon pre training I was getting really irritable. How much of each are you taking?

I have cut down the doses to .5 g tryptophan and .5 g of taurine before bed. 1 g of tyrosine any time before noon. Also take .25 g magnesium before bed. Not the worst thing in the world and I am using a preworkout just fine without burnout so I feel like I am getting what I want out of it.