I also think my problems might have something to do with the 2 scoops of OxyElite Thermo Powder right in the morning. I take it upon waki ng because it is a stimulant, the caffeine gets me going and the yohimbine (in theory) is releasing some stored fat for me to burn during my fasted cardio.But when you look at the ingredient list, it includes ace-k and sucralose. I'm not sure if the small amounts of artificial sweeteners are enough to cause an insulin response, but if they are its 1) rendering the yohimbine ineffective and 2) actually ruining my entire day from a fat burning perspective instead of helping at all.Thoughts?

It normally depends on the person, I have had sugar free drinks in the AM and been fine but since you are trying to figure out what might be going wrong here I would drop it right away.

I would leave the hydrolyzed whey for intra or post workout as this will spike insulin before training which is what you don't want. I would leave out the cardio and do HIIT. Just follow the book and don't change things.

I didn't realize the hydrolyzed was with all of those meals. I would drop those too.I would only include the small shakes in backload meals.

jlaplaca84, thanks for taking the time to comb through all that, I appreciate it. To answer your questions: I workout 4 days a week Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat. Current split is Chest/Lats Mon, Hams/Calves/Abs Wed, Shoulders/Tris/Bis Fri, Quads/Calves/Abs Sat. I just changed over to PRRS Training from doing a typical Upper/Lower split. PRRS Training is centered around manipulating rep tempo to target different muscle fibers. Just trying it out for now, but at most other times I'm doing an Upper/Lower split twice a week.Are you lifting heavy? It might be benefical to switch to Shockwave or 5/3/1. Use a program that you can track your progress. Are you benching? deadlifting? squatting? overhead pressing?I've been training seriously for 5-6 years now. I'm 20, about to be 21 on August 5th. I'd consider my skill level to be at the higher end of intermediate. I've toyed with dropsets, supersets, two a day training, every intensity ramping technique in the book. Lately I've been trying to keep it simplified, but PRRS Training looked really enticing so I'm giving it a fair shake for 9 weeks.Always keep learning dude. I personally follow 5/3/1 with a westside hybrid and the rest is instincts. I like high volume and supersets. I work them in sometimes and sometimes I don't. Sometimes you don't always know how you're going to feelSleep is about 6.5-7.5 hours a night if I'm lucky. I'm incredibly busy this summer. I have 2 jobs (Usher at Wrigley Field, Product Representative for Ronnie Coleman Signature Series supplement line) and an internship (ABC 7 Chicago Sports). Sleep is at a premium, and living back at home (I dorm when I'm at school) is yet another thing that adds stress on top of all the jobs and internship stuff. Stress is terrible, yes, but unavoidable for me right now. I just have to work on limiting it.My BF% is about 13%, just an estimate though. I've never actually had it tested. I'd also like to add that as the RCSS product rep, I can get my hands on plenty of free supplements. Unfortunately, the majority don't exactly fit into the CBL protocol. I've narrowed it down to Pro Antium, which is a blended protein and creatine supplement I take in my backloads, Stacked NO, which is an agmatine based product that I take in at the front end of my backloads to help with nutrient absorption, and Iso Tropic Max, which is hydrolyzed whey that I'll now start taking only in my backloads. That's it. We offer so much other stuff, it's a shame I can't utilize them in some way without them throwing off my hormones in some way... For example, we have a test booster that includes DAA and Agmatine. I'd love to take it every day because DAA works when taken daily, but the agmatine is insulinotropic and would only make sense in backloads. Since I don't train every day, the product wouldn't fit in on ULC days, meaning I wouldn't be getting the dose of DAA every day that I need.  :- Most other supps we offer also have a similar reasoning for why I can't take it.Also, since I'm getting a protein supplement that comes close (not exactly, but close) to the hypertrophic postworkout recommendations for free, I'm not going to go out and buy all of those ingredients as well. I don't have the expendable income for that.Now I'll respond one by one to your suggestions.- I'm going to cut out the OxyElite and switch to black coffee before my cardio. I'm wondering if it really is messing with my insulin, so the only way to tell is to knock it out. I'm also probably going to buy some bulk Yohimbine to take with my coffee upon waking.That should be fine. Just becareful and responsible with that combo.- I take the Apple Cider Vinegar because I've seen multiple studies that show taking it before a meal enhances digestion as well as reduces the insulin response to that meal. I'm not sure what mechanism it uses to clear blood glucose though. Haven't heard the cinnamon recommendation before, would it do the same thing as ACV?I haven't heard anything about the ACV doing that. Not saying it isn't true but in this case it seems like were combing through a pile a sand to find the problem so it might be a good idea to throw out all of the things you are doing that aren't recommended- Noted on the Fiber. I'm going to cut it out. I used to take double that dose, but I'm still noting discomfort with just 1 Teaspoon.Calcuim and magnesium is pretty much all you need even on ULC Days. I do eat vegetables but I don't rely on them- I don't think I'm going to add any hydrolyzed whey preworkout if it's causing an insulin response (which is also why I'm dropping it throughout the ULC period altogether), but I might add the MCT Oil. Just curious to know your reasoning, otherwise I'll refer back to the book.If its under 10 grams with the mct oil there won't be much of an insulin response or any response at all.- The 1 pill of ILoad before bed is an experiment, I've seen it discussed on a few threads here and wanted to try it out. I found it takes REALLY long for me to digest food, so I figure my backload carb meal is acting on my blood sugar levels longer than it does for other people. That's why I wanted to try the ILoad before bed to cover my bases and clear all the glucose from my system so that the cortisol production at night can take place without the presence of insulin like it's supposed to.I would stick with digestive enzymes- On the cardio, I'm probably going to just switch to HIIT on off days. I may keep in the LISS stuff on workout days... Still debating.- I went low fat at night thinking that the fat would prolong the digestion of the meal. I eat really late, so I didn't want the meal to be impacting my system well into the night. But if it's fat and whole food protein, it won't impact my insulin, so I guess I don't have much to worry about there... I'll add in fat in that meal and see how it goes.- Definitely a huge fan of peanut butter as well lol. But when I eat it I literally measure out two tablespoons as to minimize the carb impact from it. I don't eat more that 1 serving at a time, so not more than 3-4 g usable carbs.Plant fat with exception of coconut oil can be inflammatory as well. There's an article on the main page regarding plant fats.- What's your reasoning behind splitting up the one big backload meal into two? Just wondering, I thought you'd want to spike your insulin as fast a possible and also get the blood sugar out of your system ASAP?No. You want to have atleast a few insulin spikes in the evening- I consider myself a textbook endomorph. My weight fluctuates WAYYY to easily for my liking, and my metabolism has always been sluggish. My typically fat kid childhood didn't help that at all. I'm trying to focus on weight loss right now simply because that's better geared towards what time allows right now. In the winter, I'll have more uninterrupted time to train and eat big. I was the same exact way and still am for the most part. I need to do high volume powerlifting/bodybuilding workouts to fight off my fat genetics- Completely agree, stress is a real killer. I can't completely cut it out, but I can try things to limit it.Don't stress over what you can't control. Its easier said then done but pick and choose your stress battlesThat should about cover it. Now for a few follow up questions.- As far as vitamin C goes... I've seen discussions about it spiking insulin. I'm taking mine with a high fat meal to blunt any response, but would Fat Soluble Vitamin C like I'm taking be a concern? I could move it into my backloads if need be.I take it after workouts with vitamin e. It helps with stress managment and because of all the antioxiditents I like it afterworkout.- I'm going to go back to the book and look up my macro nutrient breakdown, but what I'm gathering is that fats are the priority during the ULC period, not protein. Am I correct?They are both important. Stick to a 0.5-1.0 ratio. You do want the bulk of your calories in the evening though. - I want to add veggies with my last ULC meal on off days for the fiber content. But those veggies also have trace carbs. Since I eat so late, should I avoid the minimal carbs in the veggies even though there may be benefits from the fiber? I just don't want to screw up the hormone cycle at night.You will be fine. Thanks again man, hate to bombard you with questions. I just really want to nail this down. Like you mentioned, dropping the supps that Kiefer doesn't recommend may help, so that's what I'm doing.

Okay so I commented again in red above...Here's a few other things... I feel like you're worrying about things that don't matter so much and you need to get the basics down. This is really a simple diet once you get the hang of it. It seems like you're doing your own verison of CBL which there really is no hybrid way of doing this diet with the exception of the CN elements.I would re read the book a few times and make notes if you need to. I read Carb nite atleast 4 times before starting it and same with CBL.

Thanks again for all the help jlaplaca84! I definitely do worry about every little thing, it's a blessing and a curse. It means I leave no stone unturned, but it also means I worry my ass off about unnecessary things a lot lol.I used to be guilty of the same thing and when I would overthink it would cause unneccesary stress. Now I just keep experiement with what may or may not work. Its the same thing with working out for me. If I overthink of my workouts or focus on one main element, I have a shitty workout.- Yeah man, I lift heavy. I've used 5/3/1 many times before, and PRRS has a component called Power Week that I just finished that uses heavy weight and slow negatives with heavy weight. Definitely doing everything you listed too, benching, deadlifting (many variations), squatting, and overhead pressing. Training is the least of my worries, I feel I have that nailed down pretty well.I'm most definitely always learning. That's the joy of the bodybuilding "lifestyle". Nothing is ever complete. You finish a great workout, and you're already thinking of how you can make it better the next time you step in the gym. You reach a bodyweight or bodyfat goal, you're already setting another one. There's no definitive end. It keeps you on your toes. Keeps you hungry for more and more success, and in turn increases your will to seek out knowledge in an effort to optimize your work. Its a craft that you have to hone like anything else, and I love it.Same here dude. Right now I am learning a shit ton about speed work and how to correctly use bands and chains.- Duly noted on the Yohimbine, have to micro dose the stuff. I wouldn't mess with it unless I get an accurate measuring scale or get a premeasured pill version.I'd go with the pills to be safe- I started using the ACV because it has a ton of health benefits, most notably lowering blood glucose and increasing insulin sensitivity. Again, not sure exactly how it reduces blood glucose levels, but studies show it definitely does. A few excerpts:

A 2007 study of 11 people with type 2 diabetes found that taking two tablespoons of apple cider vinegar before bed lowered glucose levels in the morning by 4%-6%.

In the study, there were three classifications of subjects: diabetics, pre-diabetics, and normal blood sugar individuals. All 3 groups in the study had improved blood glucose readings after taking two tablespoons of apple cider vinegar prior to two meals per day. The pre-diabetic group showed the strongest benefit from apple cider vinegar, with a 50% drop in blood glucose after each meal.

There are more, but those are the most frequently mentioned. I understand that pre diabetics and actual diabetics had the strongest response here, and I'm not a member of either of those groups thankfully. Makes me wonder if there would be benefit to taking it before bed... But for now, I'll probably cut it out until I can do more thorough research. - Yeah, Psyllium has been gone for just over 24 hours and I can already notice a change in bloating. I only get supplemental calcium and magnesium through my multi though, might have to look into those.Its pretty cheap at Trader Joe's- 10 g seems to be that magical limit with whey, but since this stuff I have is hydrolyzed and has absorption enhancers in it, I'm going to steer clear for now. I'd feel much more comfortable if I had whey isolate to use here, but oh well...- I read that article on plant fat too... so disappointing lol peanut butter is my absolute favorite thing on the planet. Moderation...  ::)I have almond butter in shakes once in a while. Moderation is correct!- Okay so a few insulin spikes in the evening. Here's my new layout:30 minutes post: 58 g carbs/59 g prot/10 g Creatine/5 g Leucine/4 g Beta Alanine1 hr after shake: 27 g hydrolyzed whey/5 g Creatine/5 g Leucine + 300 g carb backload1 hr after meal: 40 g dextrose/27 g hydrolyzed whey/5 g Creatine/5 g LeucineI think you're better off eating instead of all those shakes if you can. If you are combining the shakes with a meal you only need 10grams of hydroSound better?- Stress is just hard man. There's absolutely no way around it for me right now, so just limiting it when I can will help. I'm trying lol.- I'll consider moving my vitamin c to the backload meal then and see how it works- Alright, I have a lot of questions regarding dietary fat. I'm going to make a new forum post too, but I have some questions for you too. You mentioned the .5:1 fat/protein ratio. I think the ratio is referring to grams and not calories. I've seen it in other places as well, but there's a range for fat intake, like .5-.75:1.Your macro ratio should be 0.5-1.0. You don't need to count caloriesBasing the goals on my bodyweight, if I use the ratios listed above for grams, that would be 170 g protein and 85 g - 128 g fat for the ULC days.That seems to be a good starting pointFor Backloading days, I've heard the goal should be to get about half of that before the workout, so 85 g protein and 42.5 g - 64 g fat. Then during the backload get the rest of these macros + your carb total for the day.This one is partly tricky as I have heard its preference and I have heard to eat little during the day. Its easy for me to eat little during the day and more at night. If I am hungry during the day I eat more and if I am not I don'tOn ULC days, I'd assume you would want to lean towards the .75 g/lb mark, and on backload days the .5 g/lb mark.I'd say so- On the fat note: when having it during the backload, I'm reading that it's better to have fat later on in the backload (2nd or 3rd meal/shake) so that the simple carbs have time to impact your blood sugar and get cleared before the fat hits your system. This way they won't impact your system at the same time. Correct? So getting some fat in the second meal (my only whole food backload meal) would be advised to reach my macro goals.Fat later in the evening is a better idea. The shake PWO shake is techinally your first meal which I 100% percent advise to limit the fat to as close to zero, but I avoid it if possible until the last meal of the evening. If I am out and don't have the best options around me I don't sweat itSO:ULC Days: 128 g fat/170 g protein/< 30 g carbsBackload Days: (1st half) 42.5 g fat/85 g prot/< 30 g carbs (2nd half) 42.5 g fat/85 g prot/Carbs from Backload(Could also shift more fat to the first part of the day if the backload is less fatty that night)You'll need to play with these numbers but these look like good baselines. Sometimes my day macros are more or less depending on how I feel. I do always wait until the 12 hour more the night after a backload.Sound good on the fat front?- I'll stop stressing about the veggies lolYou can have as much greens as you want for the most part.Just don't eat them by the bucket load lol- The amount of questions I'm asking might not show it, but I've read the book twice already and am working on a third time lol. Always learning.Thanks again for all of your help, this is awesome.No problem. A lot of this is trail and error and a lot of patiences. Before you know it you will know exactly what to do. I currently am happy with my bf level and working a lot on strength and size