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Ok, so I won't bore you with how the convo came about, but basically yesterday I found myself unable to convince my friend of the problems using a PSMF diet.I had used such a set-up in the past 2g's/lb of LBM, 10g's of fish oil and nothing else with one free meal and one carb re-feed a week. It was the most consistent and effective fat-loss plan I've used to date. Now I know that this set-up is bad, but I couldn't put it into words. Plus, when talking to my friend he just kept pointing out how well it worked for me. I know that it leads to potential muscle loss, but the high protein intake should mitigate that (the muscle loss, not the gluconeogenesis). Also, it probably messed up my metabolism which helped me regain the weight which is why I'm on CNS now. However I blame my lack of self-control for the rebound more than a damaged metabolism (it probably didn't help though).Also the diet (I used the 'Rapid Fat-loss Protocol' by Lyle McDonald), basically tells you to take EC, and while I don't think that stack is bad I also don't think a diet that necessitates supplements to work is good in the long run. Problem is all my arguments against the PSMF were speculation, where-as the pros of the diet were in my good results from using it (concrete in other words), which basically lead to me feeling pretty uneducated in the subject. TL;DR: What are the major problems with a low fat/carb, high protein diet. And why shouldn't I use one?
The biggest problem is nutrient deficiency.With out enough fat you aren't gonna be getting your fat soluble vitamins, as well as most of the protein people getting on the PSMF (at least that I've seen) come from protein powder which can cause some other nutrient deficiency from stuff you'd be getting it whole meat products.
Yea when I ran it, it was all chicken tits ;DGood point about the vits, there is of course lots of vegetables in there (within reason), and the fish oil like I mentioned. A multi would probably help the situation as well. I should also mention that depending on your body fat level the diet (duration, setup) varies. Basically the fatter you are the longer you go without breaks and you get less refeeds during the week.
i totally agree with you!
Anyone else? Doing some research on the internet, and generally can't find too much about why this diet would be a bad idea (besides the fact that it takes A LOT of willpower)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvationProtein poisoning was my first thought, or rabbit poisoning.
^that takes a while.The biggest argument against it is the hormonal/catabolic problems that come along with any drastically severe caloric deficit. It's kind of a blow to your hormones if you do it longer than a week or so. Probably better off just cutting cals on a keto diet with refeeds... like CNS.Maybe read Lyle's book, the rapid fat loss handbook I think it's called?
Well I'm not sure how long rabbit starvation is supposed to set-it, but I never had any of those effects (certainly not diarrhea) when I was on the PSMF.This may be due to all the veggies I was eating, and all the minerals/vitamins that come along with them. Plus you get a re-feed and a free meal every week. The free meal is for psychological reasons, the refeed is high carb/low fat. So whenever I had my free meal I made sure it was steak. A multi, fish oil, sodium/potassium, mag/calcium are all suggested as well.
I didn't even know what PSMF stood for, but thanks to Google and Wikipedia I now feel like I can pretend to know what I'm talking about. 😛Seriously though, this is what jumped out at me on Wikipedia:"PSMF was designed in the late 1970s as a diet for a rapid weight loss for the morbidly obese.[1][2] PSMF is a type of very low calorie diet with dehydration being a health concern, hence fluids, vitamin and mineral (potassium and sodium) supplementation is necessary and doctor's supervision is recommended."If your friend is morbidly obese, taking the right supplements and under a doctor's supervision maybe a PSMF is the right diet for him. But if he's missing one of those criteria, then probably not.Regardless of the specific potentially negative consequences, the idea of taking a diet out of context should be argument enough. Applying a plan intended for people who need to loose 30+ lbs right now or die to someone who just wants to loose weight but is otherwise healthy seems like a bad idea to me. Why not just try a diet/exercise plan intended for healthy people instead?It's like Kiefer pointed out on one of the Biojacked recordings I listened to recently. There is no perfect diet, but the is a perfect diet for each situation. Putting couch potatoes on performance diets or athletes on couch potato diets or skinny people on fat people diets is always going to be less than optimal at best and harmful at worst.
Maybe read Lyle's book, the rapid fat loss handbook I think it's called?
You don't say 😛
(I used the 'Rapid Fat-loss Protocol' by Lyle McDonald)
Yea that's the one I used. Twice. First time had great results, but the second time I should have focused on gaining muscle (wish I knew about CBL) since I was too small to try another crash diet. Still saw good results the second time as well, but I just looked like a starved girl haha
Good point Coffee, but to be fair ketogenic diets were first used for the treatment of epileptic patients IIRCPlus it goes back to the argument of it actually working for me in the past. Just to be clear, my friend doesn't want to do the diet, he was just curious as to why I wouldn't just use that again. That's what stumped me. I know it's supposed to not work, but it did. What I'm really interested in is what Kiefer wrote in CNS "Eating low-carb and lo-fat, in other words high protein, has no advanges but possesses the same drawbacks as a lo-fat, low-cal diet....and actually accelerates the rate of muscle loss. "However you kind of compensate for that by eating a lot of protein, plus isn't your bodyfat sort of muscle sparing. Plus, again, I didn't notice muslce loss (the first time around)
Good point Coffee, but to be fair ketogenic diets were first used for the treatment of epileptic patients IIRCPlus it goes back to the argument of it actually working for me in the past. Just to be clear, my friend doesn't want to do the diet, he was just curious as to why I wouldn't just use that again. That's what stumped me. I know it's supposed to not work, but it did. What I'm really interested in is what Kiefer wrote in CNS "Eating low-carb and lo-fat, in other words high protein, has no advanges but possesses the same drawbacks as a lo-fat, low-cal diet....and actually accelerates the rate of muscle loss. "However you kind of compensate for that by eating a lot of protein, plus isn't your bodyfat sort of muscle sparing. Plus, again, I didn't notice muslce loss (the first time around)
That's an interesting point about the epileptic patients.From what I understand, you are right about body fat being muscle sparing which is one reason fat people can get away with going very low calorie when it would cause muscle loss for lean people.I didn't read Carb Nite, but I seem to remember reading about the high protein-low fat-low carb issue recently. I think the problem was that you are training your body to use protein as fuel which means it's going to go after muscle tissue rather than fat stores if your running a calorie deficit.As far as why you wouldn't do it again, I think you answered your own question in the original post:"it probably messed up my metabolism which helped me regain the weight which is why I'm on CNS now. However I blame my lack of self-control for the rebound more than a damaged metabolism (it probably didn't help though)."I would argue that a diet that caused weight loss followed by a rebound didn't work. Even if self-control was partially (mostly) to blame.
Good point Coffee, but to be fair ketogenic diets were first used for the treatment of epileptic patients IIRCPlus it goes back to the argument of it actually working for me in the past. Just to be clear, my friend doesn't want to do the diet, he was just curious as to why I wouldn't just use that again. That's what stumped me. I know it's supposed to not work, but it did. What I'm really interested in is what Kiefer wrote in CNS "Eating low-carb and lo-fat, in other words high protein, has no advanges but possesses the same drawbacks as a lo-fat, low-cal diet....and actually accelerates the rate of muscle loss. "However you kind of compensate for that by eating a lot of protein, plus isn't your bodyfat sort of muscle sparing. Plus, again, I didn't notice muslce loss (the first time around)
Funny, because it worked extremely well for me, but I never did it for more than 4-5 days in a row before re-feeding.I was taking stupid amounts of stimulants though, and I never lost any strength despite going from 154 to 141 in a few weeks. I looked like I had cancer though, and wouldn't do it again.I think depending on the duration of the PSMF and the individual's willpower/genetics, it can work fairly well. When you are too lean though, leptin becomes a major issue and that's why fatter people can get away with eating very little for a while after getting over the emotional/behavioral aspects of dieting. I don't know about you, but I have found out through experimentation that I don't digest/tolerate fat all that well, nor do I feel satiated by it unlike most people. I also don't care much for fatty/salty food. I love beef and bacon, but I'm a carb/sugar fiend so keto diets make it easy for me to limit my food intake. I think PSMF can be part of an efficient weight-loss diet, but it has to be limited and cycled. I personally prefer starting with that after a holiday or a planned bulking phase, and as soon as it becomes too tough I up the fat. I would never suggest it to someone unless they are fat or know their own body very well.
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