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I was reading the previous issue of FLEX magazine, April 2012, and there as an article by Keifer titled “No Carbs Required”. Keifer mentioned the importance of Leucine supplementation, even on low-carb diets. Apparently, clients running a pre-contest version of Carb Nite packed on 3 lbs of muscle in the course of 12 weeks, simply by adding Leucine to the diet (3-5g's). Keifer mentioned adding Leucine to meals, esp. pre- and post-workout.10g of typical BCAA's contains ~5g Leucine, and a good BCAA supplement like Modern BCAA's by USP Labs contains slightly more per serving (4:1:1 ratio, as opposed to 2:1:1), without the artificial ingredients.To achieve optimal effect, as mentioned in this article, would it be okay to add 3-5g of Leucine to ALL meals? Or JUST pre-workout / post-workout? How about intra-workout?I was under the impression, based on the article, that Leucine spikes insulin. Wouldn't that hinder any progress with fat loss? And, if so, why would it be suggested, by Keifer, for use during Carb Nite (esp. pre-contest)?Just looking for some clarity on this interesting, potentially important, topic (esp. for bodybuilders). To not just maintain, but even add a little muscle, would be great during a fat-loss program.Thanks,Cory
Thanks.I know Keifer had mentioned pre and post, and at meal times. The article, unfortunately, wasn't too specific about precise timing.Would you also recommend leaving them out of intra-workout (sipped while lifting or doing martial arts)?Appreciated.Cory
If you're trying to pack on mass, then sure, take Leucine with every meal. But if you have much fat to lose, taking Leucine with every meal will encourage the storage of more fat — with the notable exception of postworkout.What Leucine does is stimulate metabolic pathways that allow growth. Under certain conditions, that growth happens in muscle, and under MOST conditions, that growth happens for fat cells.
If you're trying to pack on mass, then sure, take Leucine with every meal. But if you have much fat to lose, taking Leucine with every meal will encourage the storage of more fat -- with the notable exception of postworkout.What Leucine does is stimulate metabolic pathways that allow growth. Under certain conditions, that growth happens in muscle, and under MOST conditions, that growth happens for fat cells.
Would it still be advisable too supplement with leucine every few hours or so in the evening after training, other than just with the PWO shake?? To be more specific, if I am training in the 4pm - 5pm range, is it still beneficial to be taking leucine with meals AFTER that until going to bed?? Thanks.
I only took it pwo on cns and just 1 scoop of the usp labs bcaa so about 5ish grams. I took made a second pwo shake and took that with each carb laden meal (2 more post pwo shake) drinking half with each one as per the cbl book. The one thing I did note though on my last cns run was that my results deadheaded after just a week oc cns and not sure if that was because of the leucine or not. I workout 4-5 times a week so I was taking it 4-5 times a week or if it was just a plateau I had hit for results. I will be experimenting with it this time around doing a week with and a week without to see what happens.
Here is a paragraph from the late “Iron Addict” Wes Silveira's book Metabolic Rebound Diet with his thoughts on Leucine:"Leucine causes a significant insulin response. In "Principles of Fat Loss" I talked in-depth about how insulin in response to carbohydrate and insulin in response to BCAAs are very dissimilar. Insulin shuttles glucose to be converted into fatty acids and stored as body fat. Leucine causes insulin secretion and, as long as it is not consumed with significant carbohydrate, it shuttles itself and other amino acids into the muscle cell. The insulin spike is also very short compared to carbs, and especially slow carbs that are caloric dense (starches). You get an insulin spike, but it is short in duration."This is a great ebook by the way which I highly recommend, especially for the price. Wes recommends a number of diets based on principles of the Warrior Diet.
Here is a paragraph from the late "Iron Addict" Wes Silveira's book Metabolic Rebound Diet with his thoughts on Leucine:"Leucine causes a significant insulin response. In "Principles of Fat Loss" I talked in-depth about how insulin in response to carbohydrate and insulin in response to BCAAs are very dissimilar. Insulin shuttles glucose to be converted into fatty acids and stored as body fat. Leucine causes insulin secretion and, as long as it is not consumed with significant carbohydrate, it shuttles itself and other amino acids into the muscle cell. The insulin spike is also very short compared to carbs, and especially slow carbs that are caloric dense (starches). You get an insulin spike, but it is short in duration."This is a great ebook by the way which I highly recommend, especially for the price. Wes recommends a number of diets based on principles of the Warrior Diet.
How does this reconcile with Kiefer in CBL stating to have Leucine in a PWO shake with lots of carbs? If I read you correctly, isn't that contrary to Kiefer's recommendation?
Here is a paragraph from the late "Iron Addict" Wes Silveira's book Metabolic Rebound Diet with his thoughts on Leucine:"Leucine causes a significant insulin response. In "Principles of Fat Loss" I talked in-depth about how insulin in response to carbohydrate and insulin in response to BCAAs are very dissimilar. Insulin shuttles glucose to be converted into fatty acids and stored as body fat. Leucine causes insulin secretion and, as long as it is not consumed with significant carbohydrate, it shuttles itself and other amino acids into the muscle cell. The insulin spike is also very short compared to carbs, and especially slow carbs that are caloric dense (starches). You get an insulin spike, but it is short in duration."This is a great ebook by the way which I highly recommend, especially for the price. Wes recommends a number of diets based on principles of the Warrior Diet.
How does this reconcile with Kiefer in CBL stating to have Leucine in a PWO shake with lots of carbs? If I read you correctly, isn't that contrary to Kiefer's recommendation?
Thats a good question JC, Kiefer does say postworkout you are in a state where it's very hard to gain fat so I would assume thats fine to include Leucine and carbs (although I think the intensity of the workout should dictate how stacked your PWO should be). The ebook I quoted doesn't specifically talk about Leucine PWO...it does recommend taking Leucine and BCAA's in general on an empty stomach, as the digestion of other nutrients could interfere with the signaling effect Leucine has. Modified response: My bad, here is what this ebook says about Leucine and BCAA's/EAA's PWO"Previous PWO standards have lead many to believe they need high-carbohydrate drinks to promote ample amounts of insulin, but as mentioned before, BCAAs in combination with a small amount of glucose will do the trick. Additional carbs can be used for glycogen replenishment for those who are focused on increasing size and endurance performance, but the specific timing of glycogen replenishment is crucial!Actual work performed during the workout or exercise bout will determine how much glycogen is burned, and as a result what needs to be replaced to refill storage requirements. Unfortunately there is no exact figure available for determining how much glycogen is used, because so many variables are involved: lean mass, individual metabolic rate, amount of workload done, available stored glycogen levels, etc."
If anyone is interested, here is a link to a study on the effects of Leucine and fat metabolism…http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CEwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abcbodybuilding.com%2Fleucine5.pdf&ei=99u9T7jiDYPQhAeE7eyZDw&usg=AFQjCNEqERjBo9IFrE-vIceD3_Dp9M6SOw
Hi,Just to clarify;If added muscle mass while on CNS is desired, is taking leucine PWO suggested on non-carb nites?Would the CBL strength accumulation hypertrophic potentiator shake (without carbs) be suitable for this?Pretty sure i've read this on here somewhere but this seems a relevant thread to ask the question again on.CheersTom
Thanks for the help Draugluir, will do that.Trying to drop a weight class and increase my total so need all the help I can get 🙂CheersTom
Kiefer has said several times in podcasts and interviews that you should experiment with Luecine around your workout. He has never said you can ONLY take it post workout… So, try experimenting with your Leucine intake around your workout (pre, intra, and post) and see how it works for you. Personally, I found that 5g of BCAAs (2:1:1 ratio of Leucine, Isoleucine, Valine) pre and post workout work the best for me whether I am cutting fat or bulking up. However, when I am bulking up, I may also have 5g of BCAAs (SciVation Xtend) while I am working out to keep up protein synthesis.
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