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i am starting the cbl sa soon and this will be good. i want to stay lean and build strength. i was confused by the table in the book. i want to be 250 and i currently weigh 305lbs. its says to lean down have 46 g of fat with approx 211g of pro on the high side. is this table based on lean, gain, or what?
You can basically ignore the tables in the book. The generalized starting recommendation for CBL is 1:1 protein:fat, in grams, per pound of bodyweight. Begin there, give it a couple weeks, assess, and tweak if necessary. That being said, I don't really think many, if any, people require over 200g protein, so you'd probably be safe capping it there.
No the chart in the book works excellently. You do not ignore it. It is difficult to understand, but it is by no means incorrect.
Difficult to understand, for sure.So say, for example, you have someone that is 150lbs and wants to recomp. According to the instructions and the chart, he should take in appx 90g protein and 27.8g fat PRE-backload. Then during backload, including PWO shake, another 57g protein. This jives with me, cuz it follows what Kiefer said on the podcast over and over about a 1g:1g ratio per lb bodyweight baseline, and that adds up to ~147g protein. But, that leaves a HUGE fat deficit. How would you include that much fat in your backload without causing insulin blunting, and free fatty acid problems? Or would you tell that person to up their fat PRE-backload and have a little bit toward the end of their backload time frame?Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn from someone more knowledgeable than me 🙂And disclaimer: I am not 150 lbs and trying to recomp, just picked 150 as a round number to reference the chart.
Correct. Fat does not blunt insulin when there are carbs involved, it actually increases insulin.
So its much like cns in ratios I just didn't see a PWO fat calc and yes I want t be lean so I am going off the table to start. That makes more sense ibob. I guess I shouldnt read on my android phone.
So its much like cns in ratios I just didn't see a PWO fat calc and yes I want t be lean so I am going off the table to start. That makes more sense ibob. I guess I shouldnt read on my android phone.
That's because there isn't a PWO fat calculator. There are not set macros or even ranges for CBL. Kiefer does offer starting points but that's all they are. Kiefer just added the Pre-Carb Mealtime Macro Calculator so people had an idea of what to eat pre-workout. Otherwise you would some people turning it into the Warrior Diet, which wouldn't lead to great results.
i am starting the cbl sa soon and this will be good. i want to stay lean and build strength. i was confused by the table in the book. i want to be 250 and i currently weigh 305lbs. its says to lean down have 46 g of fat with approx 211g of pro on the high side. is this table based on lean, gain, or what?
You can basically ignore the tables in the book. The generalized starting recommendation for CBL is 1:1 protein:fat, in grams, per pound of bodyweight. Begin there, give it a couple weeks, assess, and tweak if necessary. That being said, I don't really think many, if any, people require over 200g protein, so you'd probably be safe capping it there.
No the chart in the book works excellently. You do not ignore it. It is difficult to understand, but it is by no means incorrect.
Difficult to understand, for sure.So say, for example, you have someone that is 150lbs and wants to recomp. According to the instructions and the chart, he should take in appx 90g protein and 27.8g fat PRE-backload. Then during backload, including PWO shake, another 57g protein. This jives with me, cuz it follows what Kiefer said on the podcast over and over about a 1g:1g ratio per lb bodyweight baseline, and that adds up to ~147g protein. But, that leaves a HUGE fat deficit. How would you include that much fat in your backload without causing insulin blunting, and free fatty acid problems? Or would you tell that person to up their fat PRE-backload and have a little bit toward the end of their backload time frame?Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn from someone more knowledgeable than me 🙂And disclaimer: I am not 150 lbs and trying to recomp, just picked 150 as a round number to reference the chart.
Correct. Fat does not blunt insulin when there are carbs involved, it actually increases insulin.
I'm with you on that. Fat can blunt an insulin response from protein, but if carbs are also present it has the potential to increase the spike, correct?This aside though, and given my example of the 150lb recomp'er; that would put him at needing another 120ish grams of fat during the backload. That seems like it would create a lot of issues with the large amount of glucose being consumed during the backload bonding with the fatty acids to create triglycerides and be stored as fat (a la http://athlete.io/1733/hi-tech-nutrient-conversion-lessons-for-carb-back-loading/). Or am I completely missing something?
i am starting the cbl sa soon and this will be good. i want to stay lean and build strength. i was confused by the table in the book. i want to be 250 and i currently weigh 305lbs. its says to lean down have 46 g of fat with approx 211g of pro on the high side. is this table based on lean, gain, or what?
You can basically ignore the tables in the book. The generalized starting recommendation for CBL is 1:1 protein:fat, in grams, per pound of bodyweight. Begin there, give it a couple weeks, assess, and tweak if necessary. That being said, I don't really think many, if any, people require over 200g protein, so you'd probably be safe capping it there.
No the chart in the book works excellently. You do not ignore it. It is difficult to understand, but it is by no means incorrect.
Difficult to understand, for sure.So say, for example, you have someone that is 150lbs and wants to recomp. According to the instructions and the chart, he should take in appx 90g protein and 27.8g fat PRE-backload. Then during backload, including PWO shake, another 57g protein. This jives with me, cuz it follows what Kiefer said on the podcast over and over about a 1g:1g ratio per lb bodyweight baseline, and that adds up to ~147g protein. But, that leaves a HUGE fat deficit. How would you include that much fat in your backload without causing insulin blunting, and free fatty acid problems? Or would you tell that person to up their fat PRE-backload and have a little bit toward the end of their backload time frame?Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn from someone more knowledgeable than me 🙂And disclaimer: I am not 150 lbs and trying to recomp, just picked 150 as a round number to reference the chart.
Correct. Fat does not blunt insulin when there are carbs involved, it actually increases insulin.
I'm with you on that. Fat can blunt an insulin response from protein, but if carbs are also present it has the potential to increase the spike, correct?This aside though, and given my example of the 150lb recomp'er; that would put him at needing another 120ish grams of fat during the backload. That seems like it would create a lot of issues with the large amount of glucose being consumed during the backload bonding with the fatty acids to create triglycerides and be stored as fat (a la http://athlete.io/1733/hi-tech-nutrient-conversion-lessons-for-carb-back-loading/). Or am I completely missing something?
Not necessarily. Kiefer does not talk about this anymore, he used to get asked about this all time. Your muscles can actually store triglycerides intramuscularly (google intramuscular triglycerides). THis occurs amongst two populations: obese people and athletes.In practice, fat storage is unlikely to occur PWO. Actually as Kiefer mentions in the book, fat storage is pretty much impossible the hour PWO regardless. Even a few hours PWO, fat storage is still very unlikely, however if you don't want to take chances you can move all the fat into last backload meal or have your backload all in one meal.Still the most practical solution is simply just to eat a little bit more fat pre-workout. That is what most people do and the fat values in the Pre-Carb Mealtime Macro Calculator is simply the bare minimum you need to consume.
so how is it that the chart says 46 g of fat and you guys keep saying 1:1 ratios. btw i am 28% BF so i am trying to lean while geting lean mass that is what he said SA would be best for. thanks guys.
The chart you are refferring to is entitled Pre-Carb Mealtimes Macro Calculator. This calculator gives you the amounts you should eat before you start backloading. In other words, the how much to eat when you are ULC before the backload starts.Let's say you are training at 5 PM and backloading PWO. Before 5 PM you need to consume at least 46 g of fat and somewhere between 106 and 190 g of protein. Post Workout (shake included) you should have between 68 and 121 g of protein. That is what the chart is saying.As far as the overall macros, Kiefer suggests 1 g/lb of fat and protein for a recomp. Meaning becoming leaner at the same bodyweight. That is not you. You will want to be more like .5 g/lb of fat and 1 g/lb of protein. These are just suggestions, you need to fin what works for you.SO let's say you want to give .5 g/lb of fat a shot. If you consume the bare minimum of 46 g of fat pre workout, you need to have 80 g of fat in your backload to meet .5 g/lb. I personally love backloading this way, but others like to put more fat when they are ULC and have lower fat backloads. It's up to you.
im all far ULC very low in BL that way i dont eat donuts and fattier types of stuff PwO because if i have one, ill have 10
Version #1 is where you Carb Backload on your Training Day. Version #2 is where you Carb Backload the Night Before.
Sorry...just a quick question from a newbie about this calculator. Given my typical week below, which version of the calculator is applicable? My goal is SA.Sunday (Rest) carb backloadMonday (Train) carb backloadTuesday (Train) carb backloadWednesday (Train) ULCThursday (Rest) carb backload (lower calories)Friday (Train) carb backloadSaturday (Train) ULC (lower calories)Or does the 2 versions address the time of day you train (AM/PM)?Thanks.
Version #1 is where you Carb Backload on your Training Day. Version #2 is where you Carb Backload the Night Before.
Sorry...just a quick question from a newbie about this calculator. Given my typical week below, which version of the calculator is applicable? My goal is SA.Sunday (Rest) carb backloadMonday (Train) carb backloadTuesday (Train) carb backloadWednesday (Train) ULCThursday (Rest) carb backload (lower calories)Friday (Train) carb backloadSaturday (Train) ULC (lower calories)Or does the 2 versions address the time of day you train (AM/PM)?Thanks.
Keep in mind that calculator is not Kiefer's nor is it based on anything he recommends. It's not bad advice, but just keep that in mind.Anyways, I'm assuming you train in the morning? Essentially you want to have .8 - 1 g/lb of protein and depending on your goals, between .5 - 1 g/lb of fat. For weight loss you want to have more towards .5 g/lb and for a recomp at the same weight you want more towards 1 g/lb of fat. Obviously carb needs depend on your training and carb tolerance.
Version #1 is where you Carb Backload on your Training Day. Version #2 is where you Carb Backload the Night Before.
Sorry...just a quick question from a newbie about this calculator. Given my typical week below, which version of the calculator is applicable? My goal is SA.Sunday (Rest) carb backloadMonday (Train) carb backloadTuesday (Train) carb backloadWednesday (Train) ULCThursday (Rest) carb backload (lower calories)Friday (Train) carb backloadSaturday (Train) ULC (lower calories)Or does the 2 versions address the time of day you train (AM/PM)?Thanks.
Keep in mind that calculator is not Kiefer's nor is it based on anything he recommends. It's not bad advice, but just keep that in mind.Anyways, I'm assuming you train in the morning? Essentially you want to have .8 - 1 g/lb of protein and depending on your goals, between .5 - 1 g/lb of fat. For weight loss you want to have more towards .5 g/lb and for a recomp at the same weight you want more towards 1 g/lb of fat. Obviously carb needs depend on your training and carb tolerance.
Thanks for the input. I'm currently at 10% BF. I'm 135lb at 5'4'' and I want to recomp and get down to about 6% BF. I'm using 1g/lb of protein and around .75 g/lb of fat.
Version #1 is where you Carb Backload on your Training Day. Version #2 is where you Carb Backload the Night Before.
Sorry...just a quick question from a newbie about this calculator. Given my typical week below, which version of the calculator is applicable? My goal is SA.Sunday (Rest) carb backloadMonday (Train) carb backloadTuesday (Train) carb backloadWednesday (Train) ULCThursday (Rest) carb backload (lower calories)Friday (Train) carb backloadSaturday (Train) ULC (lower calories)Or does the 2 versions address the time of day you train (AM/PM)?Thanks.
Keep in mind that calculator is not Kiefer's nor is it based on anything he recommends. It's not bad advice, but just keep that in mind.Anyways, I'm assuming you train in the morning? Essentially you want to have .8 - 1 g/lb of protein and depending on your goals, between .5 - 1 g/lb of fat. For weight loss you want to have more towards .5 g/lb and for a recomp at the same weight you want more towards 1 g/lb of fat. Obviously carb needs depend on your training and carb tolerance.
Thanks for the input. I'm currently at 10% BF. I'm 135lb at 5'4'' and I want to recomp and get down to about 6% BF. I'm using 1g/lb of protein and around .75 g/lb of fat.
To get to 6%bf might require an approach more similar to Carb nite.
Version #1 is where you Carb Backload on your Training Day. Version #2 is where you Carb Backload the Night Before.
Sorry...just a quick question from a newbie about this calculator. Given my typical week below, which version of the calculator is applicable? My goal is SA.Sunday (Rest) carb backloadMonday (Train) carb backloadTuesday (Train) carb backloadWednesday (Train) ULCThursday (Rest) carb backload (lower calories)Friday (Train) carb backloadSaturday (Train) ULC (lower calories)Or does the 2 versions address the time of day you train (AM/PM)?Thanks.
Keep in mind that calculator is not Kiefer's nor is it based on anything he recommends. It's not bad advice, but just keep that in mind.Anyways, I'm assuming you train in the morning? Essentially you want to have .8 - 1 g/lb of protein and depending on your goals, between .5 - 1 g/lb of fat. For weight loss you want to have more towards .5 g/lb and for a recomp at the same weight you want more towards 1 g/lb of fat. Obviously carb needs depend on your training and carb tolerance.
Thanks for the input. I'm currently at 10% BF. I'm 135lb at 5'4'' and I want to recomp and get down to about 6% BF. I'm using 1g/lb of protein and around .75 g/lb of fat.
Ok you are on the right track, but realize CBL isn't really for getting stupid shredded like 6% bodyfat. It will require a lot of experimentation.
Ok you are on the right track, but realize CBL isn't really for getting stupid shredded like 6% bodyfat. It will require a lot of experimentation.
Yea...I am experienting. I was already doing a low-carb/high-fat diet before I discovered CN and CBL. I started CN for a couple of weeks; and it was recommended (one of Keifer's posts) that at BF levels below 15% that I should be doing CBL, so I'm "transitioning" to that by slowly increasing my carb feed frequency during the week. I didn't really know which carb baseline to use from the delta-weight chart since the CBL mentioned I could skip the prep phase at my BF level. So, I pulled the 270g carb baseline (just basing this from the fact that my weight would fluctuate +-3lb). What tweaks do you recommend besides the carb baseline?
Ok you are on the right track, but realize CBL isn't really for getting stupid shredded like 6% bodyfat. It will require a lot of experimentation.
Yea...I am experienting. I was already doing a low-carb/high-fat diet before I discovered CN and CBL. I started CN for a couple of weeks; and it was recommended (one of Keifer's posts) that at BF levels below 15% that I should be doing CBL, so I'm "transitioning" to that by slowly increasing my carb feed frequency during the week. I didn't really know which carb baseline to use from the delta-weight chart since the CBL mentioned I could skip the prep phase at my BF level. So, I pulled the 270g carb baseline (just basing this from the fact that my weight would fluctuate +-3lb). What tweaks do you recommend besides the carb baseline?
You misunderstood Kiefer. Whether or not use Carb Nite depends on your goals. CBL is for putting on muscle and losing fat at the same time. Carb Nite is fat loss focused and it will come off faster than CBL. Kiefer just recommends that if you are above 15% bodyfat to use Carb Nite to get your bodyfat levels under control because CBL does not work as well until you are 15%. I can't recommend tweaks as I never been that lean, nor am I familiar with you. However I do know Kiefer has most people doing modified Carb Nite to get that lean. That is where you have a Carb Nite every 5 days. I would start there.
i am starting the cbl sa soon and this will be good. i want to stay lean and build strength. i was confused by the table in the book. i want to be 250 and i currently weigh 305lbs. its says to lean down have 46 g of fat with approx 211g of pro on the high side. is this table based on lean, gain, or what?
You can basically ignore the tables in the book. The generalized starting recommendation for CBL is 1:1 protein:fat, in grams, per pound of bodyweight. Begin there, give it a couple weeks, assess, and tweak if necessary. That being said, I don't really think many, if any, people require over 200g protein, so you'd probably be safe capping it there.
No the chart in the book works excellently. You do not ignore it. It is difficult to understand, but it is by no means incorrect.
Difficult to understand, for sure.So say, for example, you have someone that is 150lbs and wants to recomp. According to the instructions and the chart, he should take in appx 90g protein and 27.8g fat PRE-backload. Then during backload, including PWO shake, another 57g protein. This jives with me, cuz it follows what Kiefer said on the podcast over and over about a 1g:1g ratio per lb bodyweight baseline, and that adds up to ~147g protein. But, that leaves a HUGE fat deficit. How would you include that much fat in your backload without causing insulin blunting, and free fatty acid problems? Or would you tell that person to up their fat PRE-backload and have a little bit toward the end of their backload time frame?Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn from someone more knowledgeable than me 🙂And disclaimer: I am not 150 lbs and trying to recomp, just picked 150 as a round number to reference the chart.
Correct. Fat does not blunt insulin when there are carbs involved, it actually increases insulin.
I'm with you on that. Fat can blunt an insulin response from protein, but if carbs are also present it has the potential to increase the spike, correct?This aside though, and given my example of the 150lb recomp'er; that would put him at needing another 120ish grams of fat during the backload. That seems like it would create a lot of issues with the large amount of glucose being consumed during the backload bonding with the fatty acids to create triglycerides and be stored as fat (a la http://athlete.io/1733/hi-tech-nutrient-conversion-lessons-for-carb-back-loading/). Or am I completely missing something?
Not necessarily. Kiefer does not talk about this anymore, he used to get asked about this all time. Your muscles can actually store triglycerides intramuscularly (google intramuscular triglycerides). THis occurs amongst two populations: obese people and athletes.In practice, fat storage is unlikely to occur PWO. Actually as Kiefer mentions in the book, fat storage is pretty much impossible the hour PWO regardless. Even a few hours PWO, fat storage is still very unlikely, however if you don't want to take chances you can move all the fat into last backload meal or have your backload all in one meal.Still the most practical solution is simply just to eat a little bit more fat pre-workout. That is what most people do and the fat values in the Pre-Carb Mealtime Macro Calculator is simply the bare minimum you need to consume.
Interesting.. Thanks for the discussion, Ibob. 😀
You misunderstood Kiefer. Whether or not use Carb Nite depends on your goals. CBL is for putting on muscle and losing fat at the same time. Carb Nite is fat loss focused and it will come off faster than CBL. Kiefer just recommends that if you are above 15% bodyfat to use Carb Nite to get your bodyfat levels under control because CBL does not work as well until you are 15%. I can't recommend tweaks as I never been that lean, nor am I familiar with you. However I do know Kiefer has most people doing modified Carb Nite to get that lean. That is where you have a Carb Nite every 5 days. I would start there.
Thanks for the input. I still want to gain muscle and lose fat so I may need a modified Carb Nite. Maybe do a carb nite twice a week (during squat/deadlift days). And a smaller carb feed on other nights when training is relatively lighter.
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