CNS/CBL Hybrid

[rtdrew82]

Hey alll,First time posting but have been reading the forums for a while.  I am looking for some opinions on my routine, etc.  I am planning on doing something like CBL SA and CNS Hybrid, with the goal of fat loss.  I work shift work, from 7pm to 7am on Mon/Tues/Fri.  Due to school, I try to make these my main work days but it can change depending on the needs of my job.  -My workout is an A/B/A/B workout.  Workout A is Squatting/Pressing day incorporating Wendler 5/3/1 with bodybuilding assistance exercises and Workout B is a pulling day incorporating Wendler 5/3/1 with BB assistance also.  I workout Sun/Mon, Wed/Thurs, with 2 hours of Rugby practice thursday night (My HIIT).-My carb days are sunday and wednesday night.  I plan on eating something like 300-400 carbs each of those nights.  On ULC, I try to eat about 1:1 fat:protein caloric ratio, with as much fiber from cauliflower/brussel sprouts/spinach/broccoli.-The reason I chose CNS (mainly) was due to other posts about CNS being the best for those that work at night.  My sleep can be random, some days I only get 4-5 hours of sleep so that I can make it to class.  Many times I will stay up all night even though I need to sleep and it really throws off my energy level, etc.  -That being said, are there any recommendations that I could incorporate to improve my outcomes?  I'm probably about 20% BF.  I want to lose fat but I don't mind taking it somewhat slow, plus I want to increase strength and have some energy for Rugby practice, plus potential game on saturday.Thanks in advance!Tom

[Doug Collins]

I know some (me included) are dabbling in the 2 carb nites a week, with carbs at about 2g per pound of lean lean body mass.  So you have 200 pounds of lean mass, have about 400g of carbs.  I feel like this is for the more advanced lifter who also does some HIIT and is interested in not only progressing with muscle mass but wants to lose fat at an accelerated rate. 

[CBachelor17]

Hey alll,First time posting but have been reading the forums for a while.  I am looking for some opinions on my routine, etc.  I am planning on doing something like CBL SA and CNS Hybrid, with the goal of fat loss.  I work shift work, from 7pm to 7am on Mon/Tues/Fri.  Due to school, I try to make these my main work days but it can change depending on the needs of my job.  -My workout is an A/B/A/B workout.  Workout A is Squatting/Pressing day incorporating Wendler 5/3/1 with bodybuilding assistance exercises and Workout B is a pulling day incorporating Wendler 5/3/1 with BB assistance also.  I workout Sun/Mon, Wed/Thurs, with 2 hours of Rugby practice thursday night (My HIIT).-My carb days are sunday and wednesday night.  I plan on eating something like 300-400 carbs each of those nights.  On ULC, I try to eat about 1:1 fat:protein caloric ratio, with as much fiber from cauliflower/brussel sprouts/spinach/broccoli.-The reason I chose CNS (mainly) was due to other posts about CNS being the best for those that work at night.  My sleep can be random, some days I only get 4-5 hours of sleep so that I can make it to class.  Many times I will stay up all night even though I need to sleep and it really throws off my energy level, etc.  -That being said, are there any recommendations that I could incorporate to improve my outcomes?  I'm probably about 20% BF.  I want to lose fat but I don't mind taking it somewhat slow, plus I want to increase strength and have some energy for Rugby practice, plus potential game on saturday.Thanks in advance!Tom

With your goals/activity level I would keep CN's to every four days. Which is going to change the day of the week its on every week. And don't worry to much about how many carbs your eating, make sure you meet your protein levels for the day though. If you weren't involved in competitive sports, and were a little leaner doing a "CN-BL" day and watching carbs might be an option. But being that you will most likely be depleted after the first day or so after your BL you should just follow CN protocol by the book. Just using the minimum suggested time of 4 ULC days in-between.That being said once you get leaner, you will probably want to start toning down the CN and move it more frequently. On your CN days just maintain at least .5:1 Fat:Protein, this will keep your total intake a little lower for the day, so you can load up on Carbs. If your feeling sluggish at .5:1 for during ULC for that day, just take in some Coconut Oil/MCT oil and that should help. Keep in mind though its a very individual thing. I don't know your LBM, body type, history.Just as a "black&white" response this is what I would suggest. The only thing you can do is experiment, observe, and then tweak accordingly.

[TCB]

I know some (me included) are dabbling in the 2 carb nites a week, with carbs at about 2g per pound of lean lean body mass.  So you have 200 pounds of lean mass, have about 400g of carbs.  I feel like this is for the more advanced lifter who also does some HIIT and is interested in not only progressing with muscle mass but wants to lose fat at an accelerated rate.

This is sound.. Except the OP is on a reversed sleep cycle.. And quite honestly, I'm not sure how that will interplay with the mechanisms of CNS/CBL. My gut tells me it will completely depend upon how well adapted, hormonally, to your personal sleep cycle your body is. Ie, has your body shifted it's insulin and cortisol sensitivity windows, melatonin leptin ghrelin signaling, etc. These aren't always things that you can tell by feel, either, unfortunately. CNS, especially, is based on hormonal manipulation/advantage, so if things aren't in the right order it may not work right.And quite honestly, I THINK I remember hearing Keifer on a podcast say that shift workers probably shouldn't try CNS.. But I could be wrong, my memory likes to lie to me.EDIT: On second thought.. Maybe it was the opposite and he was saying CNS would be the better option for shift work because it's only a once a week hormonal manipulation as opposed to day to day. Shit... Waters: Muddied.  :-Sorry I couldn't be more help, OP!

[rtdrew82]

To TCB:From my understanding and reading, it is the latter option (CNS for reversed sleep cycle) that is best because of the once a week hormonal manipulation.  Otherwise, I could be throwing carbs in my system at non-optimal times multiple days per week, like you said.  I don't feel very in sync with nightshift, so I want to err on the side of caution and just go with fat loss for now.  There is a chance that I will be going day shift soon but its only a chance, not guaranteed.To CBachelor17:Something I was trying to stay away from was the shifting of CN each week.  I work from 7pm to 7am at a busy ER (I'm a nurse) and do not like the idea of trying to fit in hundreds of carbs while at work.  I would need to start at say 2:30am-3:30am and finish at 9:30am or so when I would go to sleep.  It would NOT be pleasant to stuff my face while at work.  Sometimes my stomach hurts and I don't think that I can work like that! 😛What I am wanting to go for is that I would workout sunday evening, have CN for both the tGlut and hormonal shifts, then work on depleting glycogen on Monday.  Same idea for the wednesday/thursday workouts and CNs.  Maybe the sunday CN could be fairly small?  And the wednesday CN would be medium/large due to having 2 hours of rugby practice the next day.  Just an idea I'm kicking around.To dcfitness21:I like this idea.  I just want enough carbs on the days I'm training to make it through without feeling absolutely beat.  And then I can still burn fat on the other days.  I'm just worried about endurance during rugby, you know?Thanks for all the replies so far!Tom

[CBachelor17]

Having a “small CN” isnt going to help much. Doing a “CN” on Sunday and Wednesday wont be a CN at all. You will really have to resistance train Wednesday Pre-Carbs to any hormonal rebalance or effective glycogen restoring process without the possibility of fat gain.Just something to think about, if you cant go 4 ULC days, and have a 6 hour window to spike insulin levels on CN.ORResistance train PRE-Carb Feeding (Not a 6 hour window) On sunday and wednesday. You need to re evaluate the plan IMO.

[rtdrew82]

So then, what I would be doing would be CBL SA, correct?  If I were to retype my first post and just put 'CBL' where I put 'CN,' would this change anything?  Would I lose any fat at all?  From what I have read, people have lost fat and gained muscle doing CBL SA.  Maybe it was not quite as rapidly, but it has been claimed to have happened. And I plan on working out before I eat carbs.  On both sunday and wednesday, I would work out just prior to eating carbs.  If I did the 2 days a week of CBL, I assume I'm not using the principles of CNS whatsoever.  Is this last statement correct?I may go ahead and try what dcfitness21 posted about.  I will have to think about it.  I could do the CNS every fifth day but I tried that in the past (with results), I just felt like crap at the gym or at practice.  I may have been overtraining.  It's hard to tell if my lack of energy is from not sleeping or from not eating.Again, thanks for all the posts so far, I appreciate it.Tom

[CBachelor17]

So then, what I would be doing would be CBL SA, correct?(No, you will be doing a modified ULC Diet Inbetween CBL-SA and CNS)  If I were to retype my first post and just put 'CBL' where I put 'CN,' would this change anything?(Huh? No)  Would I lose any fat at all? (You never know until you try) From what I have read, people have lost fat and gained muscle doing CBL SA(Very true, the standard CBL SA protocol. All other methods "Rouge" (Including the one i currently follow) Are experimental protocols that require fine tuning based on the individual.).  Maybe it was not quite as rapidly, but it has been claimed to have happened. And I plan on working out before I eat carbs.  On both sunday and wednesday, I would work out just prior to eating carbs.  If I did the 2 days a week of CBL, I assume I'm not using the principles of CNS whatsoever.  Is this last statement correct? (This should work, train hard, and heavy before carbs. )I may go ahead and try what dcfitness21 posted about.  I will have to think about it.  I could do the CNS every fifth day (Like I suggested at your BF% this is what I would do if its an option. You will likely get better/faster results going 4-5 ULC days esp w/training.)but I tried that in the past (with results), I just felt like crap at the gym or at practice.  I may have been overtraining.  It's hard to tell if my lack of energy is from not sleeping or from not eating.Again, thanks for all the posts so far, I appreciate it.TomNo problem! Sounds like you have the basics of both protocols down; all thats left is to implement a plan, monitor the results and go from there

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