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I've been going through the forums a lot to find this answer, but all I could gather was that coconut oil increases your metabolism and prolong ketogenesis and all that good stuff. Does anyone know if taking in coconut oil alone would be enough to “break” a 12hr fast to prevent catabolism? Kiefer talked about not fasting past 12 hours.
Yeah that's why he insists on people take in the coconut oil at or prior to the 12th Hour Mark, to keep from muscle catabolism and mTOR running. Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
I've been going through the forums a lot to find this answer, but all I could gather was that coconut oil increases your metabolism and prolong ketogenesis and all that good stuff. Does anyone know if taking in coconut oil alone would be enough to "break" a 12hr fast to prevent catabolism? Kiefer talked about not fasting past 12 hours.
**Correction: the quotes were taken from Kiefer's articles**You are correct about the coconut oil's benefits. One beneficial process resulting from a fast is autophagy, which basically allows the "junk" from your cells to be cleaned up. This can be harnessed to a performance minded person's goal, but if left to run rampant can also "clean" up your muscle cells. This would happen when the fast lasts longer than 12 hours. The factor that has been show to regulate this process is mTOR. So basically what you are asking is will coconut oil be enough to keep the mTOR pathyway from shutting down."Macroautophagy stays on for 24 hours or longer only in fast-twitch muscle if we don’t eat. You know fast-twitch muscle: the stuff we all work so hard for. Autophagy stimulated by prolonged fasting is destructive; it’s passed the point of beneficial. Prolonged fasting triggers autophagy to deteriorate muscle tissue faster than severing the nerve to the muscle[29, 30]. Unacceptable after all the hard work we put into building it.""Amino acids can be highly suppressive to autophagy and in muscle, it requires both leucine and phenylalanine to shut autophagy down completely[2]. It turns out that autophagy is the only catabolic trigger that we can shut off with nutrients after resistance training[19].""The ideal way to manipulate autophagy would be to allow fasts long enough to trigger macroautophagy without down-regulating the mTOR pathway, which can occur within 12 hours of fasting. At this point, eat something. If we spike free fatty-acid levels, or keeps them sustained, then the body continues producing ketones, which are the sole regulator of chaperon-mediated autophagy. This procedure has several cerebral benefits and not only will it avoid the atrophy of fast twitch muscle, but ketones protect muscle tissue from degradation."Kiefer can chime in here but he has stated that the coconut oil and coffee in the morning is not a meal but rather targeted nutrition. In the last quote he states to "eat something", therefore I would assume coconut oil would not be enough for preventing macroautophagy from destroying muscle tissue.
I've been going through the forums a lot to find this answer, but all I could gather was that coconut oil increases your metabolism and prolong ketogenesis and all that good stuff. Does anyone know if taking in coconut oil alone would be enough to "break" a 12hr fast to prevent catabolism? Kiefer talked about not fasting past 12 hours.
You don't have to wait twelve hours to take the coconut oil. Have it on waking with your coffee. Brake the fast with food. If you want to go longer than twelve hours fasting include the 10g whey isolate with the mct to help prevent any Muscle tissue catabolism (proteolysis). This is not breaking the fast with such tiny amounts of nutrients.+1 what that guy said above.
I see. Thank you all. You're right, I guess it'd be nice if Kiefer could chime in here to verify. So to clarify, it's fine to take coconut oil even before the 12hr mark to spike ketones, and that won't interfere with the “good” autophagy. But that's not enough to stop catabolism of fast-twitch fibers, so you still have to eat at the 12hr mark after that, am I right?
I think a lot of what slyfox posted was copy and pasted for you and I know you don't have to wait 12 hours to ingest mct because it came from kiefers mouth on one of the podcasts, I don't remember wich now. If you haven't Listened to them I would. They answer a lot of questions you didn't know you wanted to ask ha.Im no phisysist, so like you I like to hear it straight from kiefer. Wether that be from an article or from his lips. I don't speculate that's for sure. This shit ain't common sense it's science.
I've been going through the forums a lot to find this answer, but all I could gather was that coconut oil increases your metabolism and prolong ketogenesis and all that good stuff. Does anyone know if taking in coconut oil alone would be enough to "break" a 12hr fast to prevent catabolism? Kiefer talked about not fasting past 12 hours.
You don't have to wait twelve hours to take the coconut oil. Have it on waking with your coffee. Brake the fast with food. If you want to go longer than twelve hours fasting include the 10g whey isolate with the mct to help prevent any Muscle tissue catabolism (proteolysis). This is not breaking the fast with such tiny amounts of nutrients.+1 what that guy said above.
Yes. Coconut oil is enough to break the 12 hour fast. It will keep the mTor pathway open, shut down Macroautophagy and help keep chaperone mediated autophagy going.
How is that breaking the fast? Surely that is keeping it going. Fat burning still persists motor persists all the good stuff still going on. Ha. I know in the if article it says this but il have to find the pod cast and get back to y'all.
Ah well, couldn't find the pod cast. There's hours of stuff on there. If I come across it I will let y'all know which podcast and minutes in. Other than that I probably just made the hole thing up, doh. Lol(I modified this post as to not be too confusing if you already read it. I was waffling ha)Read the IF article it's awesome!
Yeah found it I'm not crazy after all. Lolhttp://podcasts.dhserve.com/biojacked/BIOJACKED-20120327-MeetMonteSpicer-Part2.mp3Listen from about 10 mins in for maybe about 8-9 mins.
Yeah found it I'm not crazy after all. Lolhttp://podcasts.dhserve.com/biojacked/BIOJACKED-20120327-MeetMonteSpicer-Part2.mp3Listen from about 10 mins in for maybe about 8-9 mins.
Since we're into podcasts, listen to:http://dangerouslyhardcore.fm/biojacked/2012/05/23/our-first-all-qa-part-2/listen at about the 16:00 minute mark.You can have the whey if you want, BUT the oil is enough, which I thought was the question I was answering. Is MCT/Coconut enough? YES. Will the addition of 10 g whey be beneficial as well? YES, sure, but not necessary.This is the difference between CBL and modified CNS (which is still not out, but will be)At 20:45, he goes more into detail.Ketones, also, have muscle preserving properties (as he mentions in the earlier part of that podcast). This question is usually important and asked by people who want to do IF to lose fat and get dismayed with the protein recommendations of CBL. Unless you're at the 10% bfat and below level, a lot of it is hair splitting. Whey would benefit you if you are at that level, but if you're above like 15% or more, you don't need the whey to keep mTor going AT THE 12 HOUR MARK.The above is my best understanding of Kiefer's material.
Ah I see where we are getting our wire crossed here Conrad. I'm seeing it as prolonging the fast and your rather seeing it as breaking the fast. Regardless the point I was making was there is no need to wait until the 12-14 hour mark to ingest mct. I would still consider this fasting rightly or wrongly until I ate something a bit bit more substantial. Believe me I'm not trying to catch anyone out with my extreme knowledge, I don't have any but what I've learned here which is sometimes contradictory and confusing. I'm here to learn. In fact I was quite pleased you called me out on it because I went back to the IF articles and autophogy podcast and was surprised how much I hadn't retained so thank you. In any case I don't think we really in any disagreement I still understand it as I did before and you obviously know your shit inside out.There is a guy at the minute consuming nothing but the am accelerator shake until after his workout, would be interesting to see how he gets on.
Ah I see where we are getting our wire crossed here Conrad. I'm seeing it as prolonging the fast and your rather seeing it as breaking the fast. Regardless the point I was making was there is no need to wait until the 12-14 hour mark to ingest mct. I would still consider this fasting rightly or wrongly until I ate something a bit bit more substantial. Believe me I'm not trying to catch anyone out with my extreme knowledge, I don't have any but what I've learned here which is sometimes contradictory and confusing. I'm here to learn. In fact I was quite pleased you called me out on it because I went back to the IF articles and autophogy podcast and was surprised how much I hadn't retained so thank you. In any case I don't think we really in any disagreement I still understand it as I did before and you obviously know your shit inside out.There is a guy at the minute consuming nothing but the am accelerator shake until after his workout, would be interesting to see how he gets on.
Hey Craggydon, love your animated avatars. 🙂I think we were answering different perspectives to the same question. No real disagreement. You're right, it does get confusing, that is why I became very specific. I see it as breaking the potentially catabolic macroautophagy process (which you would have already done with the coconut oil in the morning coffee) without hindering fat burning. Now, it depends on your goal (and we all have different priorities in this regard) and if you're doing SA or DB or CNS, as to whether you add the protein or not. I would not generalize the results the guy doing the am accelerator gets to the general population as the effectiveness of these protocols depends a lot on genetics, current state of health, propensities like hormonal production and balance, age, and even gut bacteria. It will work, the principles are the same for everyone, just how much becomes an individual thing. That is why it is helpful on these forums to give as much data as possible when asking questions. To cite an obvious but nevertheless valid example, a diabetic, for example, will have different results from a non-diabetic and will need to modify to make it work. Sometimes it is not as effective the first time because your body needs time to change and accumulate the enzymatic foundation to support it. So it will get there, just not right away. There are years of damage to undo. Sometimes the protocols throw the body for a loop and it will take a while to recover and learn to adjust as it asks you the question: "So what is it that you want me to do NOW!?!"
I'm just going to tag onto this post….I finish CBL about 10pm, workout next day 9-10:30am and have oil sometimes around noon. I know it's only 14 hours...my assumption is I'm fine because otherwise it would have to be before my workout which is NOT recommended. Any quick thoughts?
dont worry, ive been fasting for 14-18 hours while CBLing (had a meal of ~600 kcals at about 12:00pm and my huge backload consisting of ~3000-4000 kcals somewhere between 5:30pm and 7:00 pm) and its been working just as fine! not even hungry at any time!
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