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This is an interview Kiefer had with Sean Hyson. I pasted the parts pertaining to your question phxplay88.http://www.seanhyson.com/blog/carb-backloading-qs-kiefer-as-part-i"Sean: You seem to indicate that training fasted, or on just coffee, is best if training first thing in the morning. So if I train in the morning, should I not have the AM Accelerator Shake you recommend in the book—coconut oil and whey—and why not?Kiefer: No, and my answer is based on a lack of knowledge. If you train fasted first thing in the morning, the upregulation of growth factors for muscle is double what it is if you were to eat before the training session.Sean: We’ve discussed this before and you’ve said that that information is based on only one study. Have you read any more on that since?Kiefer: I unfortunately haven’t. But it’s better safe than sorry.Sean: You mean it would be better to train totally fasted than to even have a little bit of coconut oil before?Kiefer: As far as I know, yes.Sean: I would think the coconut oil would be beneficial, and give you a quick energy boost.Kiefer: Well, that could be the problem. It might be the introduction of any exogenous fuel source that might change that reaction.Sean: So the AM Accelerator Shake is really for guys who are going to train later in the day like you’re ideally supposed to. But you bag that if you have to train in the morning?"Kiefer: That’s correct.It looks like there is lack of research BUT from what is out there it is best to avoid it preWO.
Forgive me but I am little confused.Is that to say if you train first thing in the morning you have:Nothing at all pre workoutOrJust coffee (black?) pre workoutWhat about HWC or butter? Are these also avoided pre workout with the oil or are they ok because they are not digested quickly?Thanks
Can I drink the coffee shake after I workout?? And then wait to eat as I normally would?
If your goal is fat loss, then skip the pre-workout shake and just drink black coffee, 200-400mg depending on your tolerance, then have a post-workout shake after your workout.If your goal is to add muscle, then you can have the shake before you train. If your not familiar, search for the AM Accelorator shake.
This is an interview Kiefer had with Sean Hyson. I pasted the parts pertaining to your question phxplay88.http://www.seanhyson.com/blog/carb-backloading-qs-kiefer-as-part-i"Sean: You seem to indicate that training fasted, or on just coffee, is best if training first thing in the morning. So if I train in the morning, should I not have the AM Accelerator Shake you recommend in the book—coconut oil and whey—and why not?Kiefer: No, and my answer is based on a lack of knowledge. If you train fasted first thing in the morning, the upregulation of growth factors for muscle is double what it is if you were to eat before the training session.Sean: We’ve discussed this before and you’ve said that that information is based on only one study. Have you read any more on that since?Kiefer: I unfortunately haven’t. But it’s better safe than sorry.Sean: You mean it would be better to train totally fasted than to even have a little bit of coconut oil before?Kiefer: As far as I know, yes.Sean: I would think the coconut oil would be beneficial, and give you a quick energy boost.Kiefer: Well, that could be the problem. It might be the introduction of any exogenous fuel source that might change that reaction.Sean: So the AM Accelerator Shake is really for guys who are going to train later in the day like you’re ideally supposed to. But you bag that if you have to train in the morning?"Kiefer: That’s correct.It looks like there is lack of research BUT from what is out there it is best to avoid it preWO.
Forgive me but I am little confused.Is that to say if you train first thing in the morning you have:Nothing at all pre workoutOrJust coffee (black?) pre workoutWhat about HWC or butter? Are these also avoided pre workout with the oil or are they ok because they are not digested quickly?Thanks
Can I drink the coffee shake after I workout?? And then wait to eat as I normally would?
Correct. Coffee (caffeine) preworkout will give you a little boost to train as well as other benefits, and another shot of caffeine post workout will further desensitize your fat cells from storing anything, all while your muscle is primed to store due to the workout. Fat and muscle cells are most sensitive in the morning and caffeine is there to desensitize the fat cells post workout, ultimately imitating the most optimal circadian rhythm, which would be at night.
Summary: fatty acid levels appear to shut off macroautophagy but continue the upregulation of chaperone mediated autophagy. MTOR can stay active at its high rate that you triggered in your previous night's training. Without the instant fatty acid load from mct oil, the mTOR pathway can start to wane. Although this may not appear to some as breaking the fast, metabolically, it breaks the fast. Before you train, if taken immediately prior to training, heavy whipping cream in your coffee is fine. The fatty acids won't be available until 2 hours at a minimum post consumption. If your training lasts an hour and doesn't run into excessive overtime, the fatty acids won't interfere with fat burning, fat loss or your post training nutrition.
Summary: fatty acid levels appear to shut off macroautophagy but continue the upregulation of chaperone mediated autophagy. MTOR can stay active at its high rate that you triggered in your previous night's training. Without the instant fatty acid load from mct oil, the mTOR pathway can start to wane. Although this may not appear to some as breaking the fast, metabolically, it breaks the fast. Before you train, if taken immediately prior to training, heavy whipping cream in your coffee is fine. The fatty acids won't be available until 2 hours at a minimum post consumption. If your training lasts an hour and doesn't run into excessive overtime, the fatty acids won't interfere with fat burning, fat loss or your post training nutrition.
So, if using heavy whipping cream to break the fast in the morning (8hrs from sleep) it can be taken inmediatly after waking because its energy content wont be avaible inmediatly, right?????? Or is it equally effective/better to take it at the 12hrs mark?
Summary: fatty acid levels appear to shut off macroautophagy but continue the upregulation of chaperone mediated autophagy. MTOR can stay active at its high rate that you triggered in your previous night's training. Without the instant fatty acid load from mct oil, the mTOR pathway can start to wane. Although this may not appear to some as breaking the fast, metabolically, it breaks the fast. Before you train, if taken immediately prior to training, heavy whipping cream in your coffee is fine. The fatty acids won't be available until 2 hours at a minimum post consumption. If your training lasts an hour and doesn't run into excessive overtime, the fatty acids won't interfere with fat burning, fat loss or your post training nutrition.
Thanks for the clarification Kiefer - you've just confirmed what I understood the position to be.However, I've now got one more follow on question about the timing of the last fat intake pre training....I understand that it's ok to take some butter / HWC fats in pre training as the fatty acids won't be available for a minimum of 2 hours (thus not interfering with fat loss during training), but won't these fatty acids become available just about the same time as we dunk down our insulin spiking post workout shake?Doesn't this lead to a increased possibility of fat storage or am I way off with the science here?At the moment I'm leaving a good 4 hours between my last fat intake (excluding 10g of coconut oil in my pre workout coffee) just in case, but I'm all up for have a nice bulletproof coffee pre workout if it's not going to be detrimental for fat loss....CheersMacca
Thanks for the clarification Kiefer – you've just confirmed what I understood the position to be.
Are you kidding me?Most of the thread, if not all was consumed by us talking about training in morning. And how to manipulate the coconut oil/am shake.Kiefer's quoted for the ideal time, evening training. And heavy whipping cream.The answer to the question we've been banding about wasn't clarified.Someone give me an answer here, in laymans. No big science words. Straight easy facts.Nobody gets up first thing in the morning and gets under the squat bar within 30 minutes of getting up.But a coffee will be ingested within the first half an hour.An a.m. workout normally takes a bit of mental and physical prep, and general hoofing about.I'm guessing someone might take a coffee within the first 15 mins of waking. I basically do.Workout probably starts 45-60 mins later, sometimes 2 hours later..... after 2nd coffee and warmups/stretching and basically writing up program for the day.So...in regards to the a.m. shake question/ mct oil coconut etc... In the morning.For Fat LossDo we drop the a.m. shake or take it? Maybe just plain ol dirty water coffee?Cause if we take it first thing in morning...actual training don't kick off for at least an hour after that...By time we've finished training, roughly an hour....then that's a 2 hour mark.Which going by Kiefer's input would not make it optimal for nothing.Again I'll point out that Kiefer's point looked like it was intended for the early evening training...So a different ballgame.I've actually been doing this wrong I think. I've been having the a.m. shake before training first thing in the morning. Thinking that for some reason putting the concoction in me wouldn't negate fat loss even though I'm putting kcals into the body. So I'm now thinking No Kcals. Caffeine...Yeah.Kiefer's work can be as simple or as confusing as one wants to make it. Most of us here who pick up Kiefer's work have half a brain in our head, otherwise we wouldn't be looking for optimal strategies etc...Trouble is.....there is a lot of variables....a lot to understand and take in.... and unravel. And sometimes, just sometimes it is, or seems contradictory.Sooo......Would some of you kind informed people please kindly pick up where this thread got left.Basically I feel it was unanswered in regards to having the a.m.shake if you train more or less in the first couple of hours of your/our day.If one trains within the first couple of hours......To have an mct a.m.shake or not......?This is an old thread, but after looking for the answer several times and coming up empty handed, this was all I could find.Maybe things have been highlighted since. I just couldn't find em. Just need pointing the right way please.ChubChub
Ill be honest, I didnt read the four pages of convorsation here. Simply because its pretty simple (to me anyway). If you train FIRST THING in the morning (as I do). Go fasted….I wake up, drink some coffee and shake loose for about an hour to wake up my Central Nervous System. Then take a caffeine Based Pre Workout Stimulant...Hit the Gym hard AF- Drink 25g of Isolate Whey and 3-5g of Leucine. After the Gym I get on some Coffee for the next hour, then eat a whole meal, consisting of .75/1 fat/protein. Usually a big chunk of Coconut Oil, a salty meat, and egg whites.
CBachelor17Yep, sounds about right to me.I just done some cardio with just straight coffee. Gonna leave it an hour and then I'll probably punch in a a.m.shake to keep any fat burning going and starve off a bit of hunger until I get a little closer to the 12-14 hour mark.Cardio wasn't HIIT, low impact stationary bike. Easy 30 mins, approx 150 kcals. Not worried about a catabolic state. In fact as I type this, I can feel my tummy grumbling. And a crappy feeling.Shower....then a.m.shake.
Understood, Im not sure why your not worried about Muscle Wasting but its obviously a personal opinion that I wont haggle you or anyone else about. Post Cardio Supplementation is pretty controversial but I personally take in 10g whey on my HIIT days to aid in recovery, Plus my HIIT is always followed by Core exercises (Abs, Obliques, Lower Back) so giving those small groups a little something seems necessary to me. If I just do HIIT i usually skip any sort of PWO until the meal an hour or so later to keep fat burning at optimal levels.
A lot of the advice on this topic has been superceded now by the http://athlete.io/5266/why-vegetable-and-nut-oils-suck/ article; Kiefer specifically recommends taking MCT oil first thing in the morning, AND post-training as long as the PWO shake is carb-free (because MCTs, as we now know, enhance the insulin response). Unfortunately he doesn't clarify what to do if training first thing in the morning; we can only assume the advice is still to do so fasted unless you're close to the 12-14 hour mark, or perhaps doing “intense strength-endurance activity”.
TigeriteThanks for the link my man. I'll look it up.I'll stick with the plain ol dirty coffee water for now.
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