Do you count Protein from plant sources?

[Jonny1337]

Hey,i am about 185 lbsm with 11 % and im doing the density bulking. i am trying to reach 180 g protein every day but i just count the prot from meat sources... e.g. eggs, whey, meat, cheese. i dont count the prot from rice, pasta etc. how do you do it? Are 180 g too much just from meat sources?Thanks in advice 🙂

[Richard Schmitt]

Count protein in everything just like you would with fat and carbs. Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[Jonny1337]

so 180 gr from ALL sources should be enough for density bulking and 185 lbs bodyweight? damn never ate that less 😀 haha

[Brandon D Christ]

so 180 gr from ALL sources should be enough for density bulking and 185 lbs bodyweight? damn never ate that less 😀 haha

Eh for Density Bulk I would try to get more in.  Kiefer recommends  going up to 1.3 g/lb could have benefits if you are trying to gain mass.  So going up to 240 g could be beneficial for you.  It's probably not super important though.

[Jonny1337]

alright, i will give it a try 🙂

[Cory McCarthy]

Hey,i am about 185 lbsm with 11 % and im doing the density bulking. i am trying to reach 180 g protein every day but i just count the prot from meat sources... e.g. eggs, whey, meat, cheese. i dont count the prot from rice, pasta etc. how do you do it? Are 180 g too much just from meat sources?Thanks in advice 🙂

As with carbs and fats, count it all -- even the protein in spinach, for instance.  Leave no macro un-accounted for.  Esp. with carbs, those can add up fast... so even count those .6511g that may be in something you eat (for instance).  Before you know it, you may have bumped beyond 30g/day, on something you could've helped.You are relying on labels, of course, so their accuracy will affect your accuracy, but do the best you can... and don't neglect what you can help.My best advice:  work your diet out in an Excel spreadsheet (w/ formulas)... that way, you can accurately tally and track EVERY macro, w/o much work on your part, and manipulate where you need to so you can dial your diet in (and adjust, where needed, later).

[Jonny1337]

thanks for your answere 🙂 I already programmed my own excel table some time ago, but never counted the prot from plant sources.. i countes every cal. but just the prot from meat sources and always tried tor each 1g/lb… 🙂but nice to know. so i can eat a bit less prot and add carbs instead 🙂

[Cory McCarthy]

thanks for your answere 🙂 I already programmed my own excel table some time ago, but never counted the prot from plant sources.. i countes every cal. but just the prot from meat sources and always tried tor each 1g/lb... 🙂but nice to know. so i can eat a bit less prot and add carbs instead 🙂

Yep.  Count it all.1g / lb lean weight is a good goal.  Don't need to go higher than 1.3g / lb lean weight, per Keifer.  Keep fat at 50/50 protein/fat ratio, but no lower than 70/30 protein/fat.  50/50 wasn't working to well for me, so I lowered to 70/30, and my body is responding far better.  It is all about tweaking -- which is why Excel is a Godsend.

[Brandon D Christ]

thanks for your answere 🙂 I already programmed my own excel table some time ago, but never counted the prot from plant sources.. i countes every cal. but just the prot from meat sources and always tried tor each 1g/lb... 🙂but nice to know. so i can eat a bit less prot and add carbs instead 🙂

Yep.  Count it all.1g / lb lean weight is a good goal.  Don't need to go higher than 1.3g / lb lean weight, per Keifer.  Keep fat at 50/50 protein/fat ratio, but no lower than 70/30 protein/fat.  50/50 wasn't working to well for me, so I lowered to 70/30, and my body is responding far better.  It is all about tweaking -- which is why Excel is a Godsend.

No you can go over 1.3 g/lb if you want, but it won't provide ny benefit.  For instance, if at the end of the day you are 30 g of protein shy 1.3 g/lb, it's fine to consume a large steak with 60 g of protein if you want to.

[Cory McCarthy]

thanks for your answere 🙂 I already programmed my own excel table some time ago, but never counted the prot from plant sources.. i countes every cal. but just the prot from meat sources and always tried tor each 1g/lb... 🙂but nice to know. so i can eat a bit less prot and add carbs instead 🙂

Yep.  Count it all.1g / lb lean weight is a good goal.  Don't need to go higher than 1.3g / lb lean weight, per Keifer.  Keep fat at 50/50 protein/fat ratio, but no lower than 70/30 protein/fat.  50/50 wasn't working to well for me, so I lowered to 70/30, and my body is responding far better.  It is all about tweaking -- which is why Excel is a Godsend.

No you can go over 1.3 g/lb if you want, but it won't provide ny benefit.  For instance, if at the end of the day you are 30 g of protein shy 1.3 g/lb, it's fine to consume a large steak with 60 g of protein if you want to.

Yeah.  That is what Keifer said.  There was no point in going over 1.3g/lb with protein.  Really just a waste of $$$.I guess it is the bodybuilder in me, but I would never recommend someone going below 1g/lb.  I was raised on the 1-1.5g/lb philosophy.  😀

[Intensity Junkie]

You do count it, but you cannot rely on it because plant protein is only around 30% bio-availability.

[sigma]

I've been counting plant protein toward my meal total when trying to match fat to protein in grams, but not towards my daily total.  So if I want 40 fat and 30 protein in a meal, I count the 6 grams of protein in a handful of almonds towards that 30.  I do not, however, count that 6 grams towards my daily protein goal of 210g (210lbs X 1g/lb).  This is how I do it, but I'm trying to bulk.

[Leo Solis]

But, arent palnt proteins by far inferior to animal proteins? So what would be the point of counting them? We eat starchy food because of their glucose content, not because of the trace amount of protein in them 1-1.3g/pound is  a lot if coming from only from whole food. Plus meat of any kind also provides plenty of important micronutrients.

[Cory McCarthy]

But, arent palnt proteins by far inferior to animal proteins? So what would be the point of counting them? We eat starchy food because of their glucose content, not because of the trace amount of protein in them 1-1.3g/pound is  a lot if coming from only from whole food. Plus meat of any kind also provides plenty of important micronutrients.

Yes, but not all plant proteins are exactly the same.  I recently researched Pea Protein Isolates (a vegan protein powder), and they have the same bio-availability as whey, only without the notorious insulin spike.The muscle mags keep pushing soy protein, as well.  I know it gets a bad rap due to the estrogens, but they are phyto-estrogens, which are not the "bad" kind.  While you should limit any estrogenic intake, I wouldn't worry to much about some phyto ingestion, just xeno.This all said, as a lacto-ovo vegetarian, I get the bulk of my protein from eggs and cheeses, and rely on whey isolates at certain times.  I never touch soy.Cory

[Leo Solis]

Regarding soy:Is Soy That Bad? by John Kiefer ? 10/21/2011 Call me a naïve optimist, but every month that passes without a mention of soy protein in health and performance media fills me with hope that the soy plague has finally ended. Then, there it is again in a headline, ?Is Soy That Bad?? I grit my teeth because I believe the answer is yes. But that?s never the point of the article. The author, who always used to ?hate? soy products, writes about his late night epiphany that soy really isn?t that bad after all. Perhaps a supplement sponsor?s paycheck caused the revelation, or maybe a new vegan girlfriend, or an unexplained rise in estrogen levels. It doesn?t matter. The damage has been done ? guru-certified support for soy. In the spirit of fairness, I?ll you tell what I know about soy; the good, the bad and the ugly. Let?s start with the good, since it turns my stomach to even admit such a thing. Good Soy? In the research, when it comes to building muscle, recovering from training, or preserving muscle mass when losing weight, soy does perform well, although not as well as milk-derived counterparts. Casein and whey and their hydrolysates are better, but soy isolate and derivatives provide amino acid spikes that both stimulate muscle growth and insulin release, another anabolic potentiator. Read enough summaries of enough research papers and soy seems on par with bovine-spawned equivalents; maybe even better considering that soy is so damn cheap. And with Gatorade trying to run up the price of whey protein because of their G2 series, soy will probably stay much cheaper. So do I still think that soy is really that bad? Like always, I?m inclined to go with the research and say yes, soy really is that bad. Wait, have I become old and crotchety and stuck on my damn opinions, regardless of how stupid the truth makes me sound? I mean, hell, why learn something new? That?s bullshit. I?ll stick with my convictions even if they?re dead-ass wrong. Now get off my lawn! Or maybe I?m just not sharing all that I know? Look, I?m not stupid. I know solid research that proves I?m wrong is as valuable as research that proves I?m right, because I always want to improve and refine my work. I admit when I?m wrong and in the case of soy, the research has only solidified my position that soy protein is junk for athletes. To determine that, however, I had to do something considered extreme and unheard of since the arrival of PubMed: I read the full articles. Had I stopped with the abstracts like 90% of internet info junkies, I would?ve been forced to take the researchers at their word, put my tail between my legs and admitted I was wrong, and reformulated my protein suggestions to use cheaper ingredients like soy. However, included in peer-reviewed articles, when applicable, is a list of materials used for the experiment and their source. The soy and other protein powders tested come from specialized formularies that create small batches of purified material. Researchers want to test the peptides and not all the extra junk included with typical brick-and-mortar store brand products. Sometimes the formulae are so pure, scientists can administer them intravenously! But I?ve never bought anything that good, and I bet nobody else reading the muscle mags has either. Now, by junk, I don?t mean the lead or cadmium that Consumer Reports found in various popular brands of protein powders like Muscle Milk. I?m talking about stuff that?s far more heinous, at least when considered in the context of strength training. (Lead might decrease intelligence, but I don?t think anyone resistance trains for a swole IQ.) The Main Villain I?m such an adamant opponent of soy ? and probably always will be ? because of the trypsin inhibitors it contains. Trypsin inhibitors are chemicals that prevent the digestion of protein. Trypsin is an essential enzyme in the gut for digesting intact proteins. By cleaving long protein chains into smaller bits, trypsin allows dietary protein to pass through the walls of the digestive tract and into circulation where it becomes the raw material for muscle, connective tissue, organs, and what not. Basically, without trypsin, the protein portion of your meals is going nowhere except right out your back end and down the toilet. There are supplements on the market that circumvent trypsin, mind you, like amino acid supplements and hydrolyzed proteins, but other proteins would get wasted if there wasn?t any trypsin, or if something neutralized the trypsin. Commercial soy products, even isolates and hydrolysates, do just that ? they neutralize trypsin. That?s what places trypsin inhibitors into a unique category of consumables called anti-nutritive factors. Anti-nutritive means exactly what it says; it destroys the nutrition of an entire meal. In soy?s case, the anti-nutritive factors do the worst thing possible for an athlete by preventing the digestion of protein. For example, beef, eaten alone has a biological value of about 90. Mix in a little soy and it drops to 26. Concerning absorption, that?s a drop of 70%. No big deal, right? Soy is cheap. Drink up, add in another 50 or 60 grams to compensate for the loss. Heck, why stop there? It?s so damn cheap, just drink a ton of it and call it a day. That misses the point completely. Soy neutralizes trypsin, meaning it eliminates the ability to digest any intact protein. It doesn?t matter how much extra protein comes down the pipe, it won?t get used. It?s far simpler to just carry your chicken, eggs, and beef to the bathroom and feed the ravenous porcelain god by hand. Soy isolates won?t help. They?re not that isolated. Sure, it?s almost all protein, but the trypsin inhibitors are proteins too. Most isolates still contain 20 to 50% of the trypsin inhibitors of intact soy. There?s no escaping the trypsin inhibitors without ordering from the same German dispensary where the researchers order their soy isolates, which I can almost guarantee isn?t as affordable as the highest quality casein hydrolysates, such as those found in Anaconda? Anabolic Load and MAG-10® Anabolic Pulse ? which also perform better in every way compared to the hydrolyzed soy equivalent. The Soy Truth That?s what happens when you read the entire research paper and don?t rely on the author?s synopsis, which often doesn?t contain enough information for a solid assessment of the findings. In this case, experts randomly suggest including a protein that will in reality prevent the digestion of all protein. I covered the good and bad of soy. As for the ugly? Well, let?s say it?s what the toilet deals with in a soy-lover?s household." References Abdel-Aziz S, Hussein L, Esmail S, el-Awadi N. In vivo rat assay for true protein digestibility and protein quality of beef and meat products extended with soy protein. Int J Food Sci Nutr. 1997 Jan;48(1):51-6. Baker EC, Rackis JJ. Preparation of unheated soy protein isolates with low trypsin inhibitor content. Adv Exp Med Biol. 1986;199:349-55. Barth CA, Lunding B, Schmitz M, Hagemeister H. Soybean trypsin inhibitor(s) reduce absorption of exogenous and increase loss of endogenous protein in miniature pigs. J Nutr. 1993 Dec;123(12):2195-200. Borowska J, Kozlowska H. Isolates from faba bean and soybean with lowered content of phytic acid and activity of the trypsin inhibitors. Nahrung. 1986;30(1):11-8. Caine WR, Sauer WC, Verstegen MW, Tamminga S, Li S, Schulze H. Guanidinated protein test meals with higher concentration of soybean trypsin inhibitors increase ileal recoveries of endogenous amino acids in pigs. J Nutr. 1998 Mar;128(3):598-605. Claessens M, Saris WH, van Baak MA. Glucagon and insulin responses after ingestion of different amounts of intact and hydrolysed proteins. Br J Nutr. 2008 Jul;100(1):61-9. Epub 2008 Jan 2. Fernández-Quintela A, Macarulla MT, Del Barrio AS, Martínez JA. Composition and functional properties of protein isolates obtained from commercial legumes grown in northern Spain. Plant Foods Hum Nutr. 1997;51(4):331-42. Fouillet H, Mariotti F, Gaudichon C, Bos C, Tome D. Peripheral and splanchnic metabolism of dietary nitrogen are differently affected by the protein source in humans as assessed by compartmental modeling. J Nutr. 2002 Jan;132(1):125-33. Gumbmann MR, Spangler WL, Dugan GM, Rackis JJ. Safety of trypsin inhibitors in the diet: effects on the rat pancreas of long-term feeding of soy flour and soy protein isolate. Adv Exp Med Biol. 1986;199:33-79. Miyagi Y, Shinjo S, Nishida R, Miyagi C, Takamatsu K, Yamamoto T, Yamamoto S. Trypsin inhibitor activity in commercial soybean products in Japan. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 1997 Oct;43(5):575-80. Morifuji M, Ishizaka M, Baba S, Fukuda K, Matsumoto H, Koga J, Kanegae M, Higuchi M. Comparison of different sources and degrees of hydrolysis of dietary protein: effect on plasma amino acids, dipeptides, and insulin responses in human subjects. J Agric Food Chem. 2010 Aug 11;58(15):8788-97. Phillips SM, Tang JE, Moore DR. The role of milk- and soy-based protein in support of muscle protein synthesis and muscle protein accretion in young and elderly persons. J Am Coll Nutr. 2009 Aug;28(4):343-54. Review. Tang JE, Moore DR, Kujbida GW, Tarnopolsky MA, Phillips SM. Ingestion of whey hydrolysate, casein, or soy protein isolate: effects on mixed muscle protein synthesis at rest and following resistance exercise in young men. J Appl Physiol. 2009 Sep;107(3):987-92. Epub 2009 Jul 9.

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