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Not to ruin anyone's dreams here, but I would need to see some more studies on the superiority of isolate vs. concentrate or other whey (sorry, couldn't resist) round. If you're a bikini competitor at 120lbs 2 weeks out, ok, but for the "normal" forum user, male, 160-200lbs @ 12-30% bodyfat, I doubt it makes ANY difference.
hey im normal lol and im 145-150!! i got little man syndrome
hey im normal lol and im 145-150!! i got little man syndrome
Haha, well I'm a bodybuilder, we all have small man syndrome though.... I use whey concentrate until a few weeks out and I never had a problem.
Basically what Dave says is that the stuff they take out of concentrate to make isolate is good for you (citation needed), helps the protein digest better (citation needed), increases glutathione and improves your immune system (citation needed). He also says it is better for those with dairy allergies (citation needed) (who may not even know that they have one) and he also avoids Casein like many other "natural health" people. The biggest problem here is that you need to be sure how much protein is actually in the concentrate as some companies will try and get away with making that percentage very low. Personally I think how quick the protein digests after a workout is overrated and not worth the extra cost in the long run. Adding some leucine to my WPC, Creatine + Dextrose works fine for me.
What "good stuff" is removed? Specifics would be nice.Define "better digestion" and how concentrate would be superior in that regard.What in WPC improves immune function that is not present in isolate specifically? Any studies to indicate that the removal results in statistically significant immune system degradation? What particularly compound makes whey protein concentrate less allergenic? The dominant allergen in whey protein is beta lactoglobulin, regardless of whether it is concentrate or isolate. People need to really question what these guys are saying for one major reason - whey isolate prices have increased over the past few years at a rate much higher than whey protein concentrate. This has squeezed the margins of product lines using whey isolate and has likely forced supplement companies to increase their use of concentrate. There is a much larger financial incentive to promote concentrate over isolate than there was only a few years ago.
Take it from a supp.-head... this is VERY true.Cory
I don't believe that Dave Asprey is just in this to make money. Sure, he's an entrepreneur, but I think he's an ethical one."I’ve spent more than 2 decades hacking my biology to get an advantage in business and enhance my family life. I will show you what works best – in the least amount of time – and what doesn’t work at all, even if it’s supposed to. I shouldn’t have had to waste so much time and energy learning this stuff. It’s our birthright."In the same way that Kiefer wants to make money, but he also really just wants people to have the knowledge that we need to make re-comping as easy as it 'should' be. We don't question Kiefer's shake recommendations just because he also sells protein powders.Obviously, some people are just scam artists and will tell you anything to make money. Don't be cynical though. Not EVERYONE is like that.
I don't believe that Dave Asprey is just in this to make money. Sure, he's an entrepreneur, but I think he's an ethical one."I’ve spent more than 2 decades hacking my biology to get an advantage in business and enhance my family life. I will show you what works best – in the least amount of time – and what doesn’t work at all, even if it’s supposed to. I shouldn’t have had to waste so much time and energy learning this stuff. It’s our birthright."In the same way that Kiefer wants to make money, but he also really just wants people to have the knowledge that we need to make re-comping as easy as it 'should' be. We don't question Kiefer's shake recommendations just because he also sells protein powders.Obviously, some people are just scam artists and will tell you anything to make money. Don't be cynical though. Not EVERYONE is like that.
I wasn't claiming that he was intentionally scamming anyone - but it is quite easy to cherry pick evidence or ignore portions of the picture when one needs to create marketing copy for a product. I have no doubt his intentions are quite good. Kiefer at least provides me with ample citations so I can decide for myself whether or not he's read the research correctly and is on to something.
Dave also provides numerous citations after every article on his website. You can see his blog at BulletproofExec.com
Dave also provides numerous citations after every article on his website. You can see his blog at BulletproofExec.com
Do you have a link to his article about WPC? I looked at the marketing copy for his Upgraded Whey and his citations there leave quite a bit to be desired in terms of their relevance to the claims being made. Of course, his most spurious claims are the ones that don't even have a citation - like tapioca dextrin being safer (whatever that means) than maltodextrin.
Here's his reasoning. Couldn't find references: Protein concentrates are created by running the whey through a fine filter that lets everything through except the proteins and the lactose and fats that are chemically attached to them. People who have lactose intolerance often don’t do well with concentrates for this reason. At the same time, the body is able to use the proteins in concentrates easily because they’re attached to the sugars and fats (this is how protein is available in food). Concentrates are anywhere from about 25% to 80% protein.With isolates, the concentrate is further processed through acid extraction or cross-flow extraction. This separates the proteins almost entirely from the lactose and fats, making isolate a more comfortable choice for the lactose intolerant, while at the same time creating a substance that is more foreign to the body than concentrate–in nature, protein typically comes packaged with fats like phospholipids, and sometimes sugars.
Here's his reasoning. Couldn't find references: Protein concentrates are created by running the whey through a fine filter that lets everything through except the proteins and the lactose and fats that are chemically attached to them. People who have lactose intolerance often don’t do well with concentrates for this reason. At the same time, the body is able to use the proteins in concentrates easily because they’re attached to the sugars and fats (this is how protein is available in food). Concentrates are anywhere from about 25% to 80% protein.With isolates, the concentrate is further processed through acid extraction or cross-flow extraction. This separates the proteins almost entirely from the lactose and fats, making isolate a more comfortable choice for the lactose intolerant, while at the same time creating a substance that is more foreign to the body than concentrate–in nature, protein typically comes packaged with fats like phospholipids, and sometimes sugars.
This is where I lose him. I've not seen any study, especially in trained athletes, that suggest that there is an enhanced immune response to whey protein in absence of the fats and lactose. Even if that were the case, I'm not even sure if it is relevant to the discussion of CBL given that all shakes include either supplemental fats or sugars.I'm simply a bit skeptical as his whey product costs $35/pound. Once can make a similar blend at home using the exact same ingredients (including the free range/grass fed whey) from $10-15 a pound. Same for ordering through a bulk supplement company, such as TN/PF/1Fast400.
Here's his reasoning. Couldn't find references: Protein concentrates are created by running the whey through a fine filter that lets everything through except the proteins and the lactose and fats that are chemically attached to them. People who have lactose intolerance often don’t do well with concentrates for this reason. At the same time, the body is able to use the proteins in concentrates easily because they’re attached to the sugars and fats (this is how protein is available in food). Concentrates are anywhere from about 25% to 80% protein.With isolates, the concentrate is further processed through acid extraction or cross-flow extraction. This separates the proteins almost entirely from the lactose and fats, making isolate a more comfortable choice for the lactose intolerant, while at the same time creating a substance that is more foreign to the body than concentrate–in nature, protein typically comes packaged with fats like phospholipids, and sometimes sugars.
This is where I lose him. I've not seen any study, especially in trained athletes, that suggest that there is an enhanced immune response to whey protein in absence of the fats and lactose. Even if that were the case, I'm not even sure if it is relevant to the discussion of CBL given that all shakes include either supplemental fats or sugars.I'm simply a bit skeptical as his whey product costs $35/pound. Once can make a similar blend at home using the exact same ingredients (including the free range/grass fed whey) from $10-15 a pound. Same for ordering through a bulk supplement company, such as TN/PF/1Fast400.
This is a good point. A lot of Dave's personally-branded supps are ridiculously-priced, stuff you can find elsewhere, and even in greater concentrations, for a fraction of the cost. I did find that a bit silly, but I passed it off as the guy making a buck (he's allowed)... and his fans, if too lazy to REALLY look elsewhere (or too trusting of his word), will buy off of him, and that is their own naivity (not his fault). He even offers deals like buy 2 get 1 at a low-rate or free (sort of thing) to sweeten the idea of the purchase.Not ragging on Dave, or his blog, just saying that his supp offers are a bit overblown, and advertised very colorfully. Kind of like a late-night advert.Cory
I can find concentrate much cheaper than isolate so I'll probably just buy the concentrate. I doubt there is any noticeable difference unless you're planning on competing Mr. Olympia.
I can find concentrate much cheaper than isolate so I'll probably just buy the concentrate. I doubt there is any noticeable difference unless you're planning on competing Mr. Olympia.
Just watch your useable carbs. A single scoop of concentrate can vary anywhere from 3-5g of useable carbs. CNS and CBL diets press for less than 30g useable carbs a day (or during ULC), but some people don't make leaps and bounds until they go below 10g/day. Ingest two scoops of some concentrates, and you've already hit 10g useable carbs.Yes, isolate is more expensive than concentrate -- no matter where you shop.Cory
This is a good point. A lot of Dave's personally-branded supps are ridiculously-priced, stuff you can find elsewhere, and even in greater concentrations, for a fraction of the cost. I did find that a bit silly, but I passed it off as the guy making a buck (he's allowed)... and his fans, if too lazy to REALLY look elsewhere (or too trusting of his word), will buy off of him, and that is their own naivity (not his fault). He even offers deals like buy 2 get 1 at a low-rate or free (sort of thing) to sweeten the idea of the purchase.Not ragging on Dave, or his blog, just saying that his supp offers are a bit overblown, and advertised very colorfully. Kind of like a late-night advert.Cory
I agree, and this is where the buyer really needs to beware. I've read a lot of Daves info and a lot of is legit and has helped reinforce areas where I was previously skeptical because he corroborates a lot of the info that i've read elsewhere. HOWEVER, one area where I think ALL people need to be careful of, is when someone is selling their own product, if they are smart and cagey marketers, they are going to employ all sorts of sneaky tactics to persuade one to buy their products; tactics like fear, doubt, denial etc. For example with Dave's coffee, he goes on and on about how bad all the other coffees are, and how dangerous they are with their Mycotoxins, and how he has searched the world high & low to find the most perfect coffee. He tells stories of how when ever he drinks "regular" coffee his joints ache, he feels sick etc. now to people that are Daves true believers they just might get spooked enough to fork over $18 bucks to buy 12 ozs. of his so called Superman coffee. Me personally, I think it's a rip off and a clever marketing tactic using every trick in the book to sell product. Do I think his claim of Mycotoxins have some validity, yes, do I think it's worth paying him 200% more for his coffee versus other "premium" brands that I can get, NO! Another person that comes to mind is Charles Poliquin, he sells some outrageously priced supplements as well, and any die hard Poliquin fans will certainly buy into his scare tactics.What I've found is when one does start to take a more proactive role in their health, nutrition and overall well being, and one starts to immerse themselves into the fitness and nutrition world, people must be careful to not get sucked into to such a point that we become obsessive compulsive nutcases fearful of every little thing all because someone is trying to sell us on their so called superior products. Next thing you know you will have spent a $100k on rewiring your house for electronic pollution, wearing tin foil hats, and making your own soap from sheep tallow because the most holistic stuff you can buy isn't "pure" enough and might give you cancer. I think it's a balance between being logical and reasonable and going overboard into the vegan nut case land.
You're right Shokat.He has got a point about the coffee though!! I can't drink coffee at any cafe or coffeeshop now. I've followed his guidelines to find good coffee (it's not that expensive, but it is maybe 2-3x more than normal pricing). All other coffee tastes undrinkable now.And he's right about meat (GRASS FED!), and butter (GRASS FED), and the emWave, and standing on a power plate for 15 min a day. So thought he might have a point about the whey. But you're right, it's better to do the research yourself after reading these things and looking into how you might source the product, rather than just going and buying a product because it's got his brand name on it.
I agree, and this is where the buyer really needs to beware. I've read a lot of Daves info and a lot of is legit and has helped reinforce areas where I was previously skeptical because he corroborates a lot of the info that i've read elsewhere. HOWEVER, one area where I think ALL people need to be careful of, is when someone is selling their own product, if they are smart and cagey marketers, they are going to employ all sorts of sneaky tactics to persuade one to buy their products; tactics like fear, doubt, denial etc. For example with Dave's coffee, he goes on and on about how bad all the other coffees are, and how dangerous they are with their Mycotoxins, and how he has searched the world high & low to find the most perfect coffee. He tells stories of how when ever he drinks "regular" coffee his joints ache, he feels sick etc. now to people that are Daves true believers they just might get spooked enough to fork over $18 bucks to buy 12 ozs. of his so called Superman coffee. Me personally, I think it's a rip off and a clever marketing tactic using every trick in the book to sell product. Do I think his claim of Mycotoxins have some validity, yes, do I think it's worth paying him 200% more for his coffee versus other "premium" brands that I can get, NO! Another person that comes to mind is Charles Poliquin, he sells some outrageously priced supplements as well, and any die hard Poliquin fans will certainly buy into his scare tactics.What I've found is when one does start to take a more proactive role in their health, nutrition and overall well being, and one starts to immerse themselves into the fitness and nutrition world, people must be careful to not get sucked into to such a point that we become obsessive compulsive nutcases fearful of every little thing all because someone is trying to sell us on their so called superior products. Next thing you know you will have spent a $100k on rewiring your house for electronic pollution, wearing tin foil hats, and making your own soap from sheep tallow because the most holistic stuff you can buy isn't "pure" enough and might give you cancer. I think it's a balance between being logical and reasonable and going overboard into the vegan nut case land.
Spot on. For that price, I'd rather buy kopi luwak, lol.
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