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Vitargo, while its the most expensive, is the best product I have tried. Dextrose just doesn't do it for me. Vitargo is easy on the stomach, and I don't go hypoglycemic on it.
Love this thread! I too have jumped on the intra-workout protocol recently. While I haven't bought a program from meadows yet (I plan to after christmas, I've been saving up) I have used peri-workout nutrition to cut down from 200lbs 10%BF to 190lbs 6%BF (by hydrostatic) in the last 8 weeks. I am currently 6″3 190lbs 6%BF and have been structuring all my carbs around my workout. This is what I've been doing peri-workout:Pre: 10g cfm isolate, 1tbsp coconut oil, 5g creatine mono, 3g beta alanine, 3g taurine, 200mg caffeinIntra: 30g Pepto Pro (casein hydro), 50-70g Vitargo depending on what day it is in the gym, 5g citrulline malate, 5g betaine anhydrous, electrolytes, 3g leucine(basically I tried to clone Anaconda by buying bulk raw materials and formulating it myself. I also believe pepto pro and vitargo are even higher quality than the casein hydro and carbs biotest uses)1 hour post: 16oz sweet potato, 10oz free range organic chicken, fish oil, 20g pepto pro pulseThe rest of the day I just eat fat and protein and have 25g isolate right before bed. I eat around 3000 cal a day give or take depending on what day it is (on or off day, and what I'm lifting). I have done ZERO cardio during all this and have added an extra shoulders/calves day and also another "power" day of sledge hammer, tire flips, sprints, etc. My split looks like this:Monday - chest/bicepsTeusday - legsWednesday - power day/absthursday - shoulders/tricepsFriday - BackSaturday - offSunday - shoulders/calves/abs (pumping movements for shoulders, no heavy compounds)For all my workouts I start with a big compound movement with low, explosive reps and then do hypertrophy based moves beyond that incorporating drop sets, rest pause, bands, ect.I experimented with using 1/2 cup oats, 1tbsp peanut butter and 20g iso before workouts by 30 minutes, however I felt my fat loss was better just doing the protocol above. Pshannon how do you feel about the pre-workout carbs? Do you tell a huge difference with recovery or your ability to push yourself during your lift? Now I am transitioning to working on gaining lean mass while maintaining my current level of conditioning. I was considering using this same peri-workout protocol but incorporating more of a CBL time eating program at night. How do you guys think using peri-workout nutrition affects CBL? DOes it affect your ability to backload like kiefer does? ie: pizza, ice cream, etc. I would think that it would decrease the level you deplete glycogen stores since the body will be burning the carbs you have before and during workout. What do you guys think Pshannon and Tanner Fox?
Carb : HIGHLY BRANCHED CYCLIC DEXTRINhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15900642http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10664836http://www.sportsci.org/2006/wghdrinks.htmThis is a fun thread.
My question was gonna be what does HBCD mean, I guess that answers it.
Ibob, I bought and used the new Gaspari PRoduct Glycofuse yesterday which has 25g cyclic dextrins per scoop and it was great, I have the same issue with dextrose during the workout and no such issues with this product! it was really good and I must say about 30 min in the pmp was unreall!! Great intensity and endurance, I believe retail on it 49.99 aswell so very reasonable price and in my opinion a better product than vitargo or the vpx stuff
Carb : HIGHLY BRANCHED CYCLIC DEXTRINhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15900642http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10664836http://www.sportsci.org/2006/wghdrinks.htmThis is a fun thread.
Only problem that 25g serving is pretty low. I would use at least 50g probably and for those of us with more muscle mass then upwards of 75 to 100g at the top end.My question was gonna be what does HBCD mean, I guess that answers it.
Ibob, I bought and used the new Gaspari PRoduct Glycofuse yesterday which has 25g cyclic dextrins per scoop and it was great, I have the same issue with dextrose during the workout and no such issues with this product! it was really good and I must say about 30 min in the pmp was unreall!! Great intensity and endurance, I believe retail on it 49.99 aswell so very reasonable price and in my opinion a better product than vitargo or the vpx stuff
Love this thread! I too have jumped on the intra-workout protocol recently. While I haven't bought a program from meadows yet (I plan to after christmas, I've been saving up) I have used peri-workout nutrition to cut down from 200lbs 10%BF to 190lbs 6%BF (by hydrostatic) in the last 8 weeks. I am currently 6"3 190lbs 6%BF and have been structuring all my carbs around my workout. This is what I've been doing peri-workout:Pre: 10g cfm isolate, 1tbsp coconut oil, 5g creatine mono, 3g beta alanine, 3g taurine, 200mg caffeinIntra: 30g Pepto Pro (casein hydro), 50-70g Vitargo depending on what day it is in the gym, 5g citrulline malate, 5g betaine anhydrous, electrolytes, 3g leucine(basically I tried to clone Anaconda by buying bulk raw materials and formulating it myself. I also believe pepto pro and vitargo are even higher quality than the casein hydro and carbs biotest uses)1 hour post: 16oz sweet potato, 10oz free range organic chicken, fish oil, 20g pepto pro pulseThe rest of the day I just eat fat and protein and have 25g isolate right before bed. I eat around 3000 cal a day give or take depending on what day it is (on or off day, and what I'm lifting). I have done ZERO cardio during all this and have added an extra shoulders/calves day and also another "power" day of sledge hammer, tire flips, sprints, etc. My split looks like this:Monday - chest/bicepsTeusday - legsWednesday - power day/absthursday - shoulders/tricepsFriday - BackSaturday - offSunday - shoulders/calves/abs (pumping movements for shoulders, no heavy compounds)For all my workouts I start with a big compound movement with low, explosive reps and then do hypertrophy based moves beyond that incorporating drop sets, rest pause, bands, ect.I experimented with using 1/2 cup oats, 1tbsp peanut butter and 20g iso before workouts by 30 minutes, however I felt my fat loss was better just doing the protocol above. Pshannon how do you feel about the pre-workout carbs? Do you tell a huge difference with recovery or your ability to push yourself during your lift? Now I am transitioning to working on gaining lean mass while maintaining my current level of conditioning. I was considering using this same peri-workout protocol but incorporating more of a CBL time eating program at night. How do you guys think using peri-workout nutrition affects CBL? DOes it affect your ability to backload like kiefer does? ie: pizza, ice cream, etc. I would think that it would decrease the level you deplete glycogen stores since the body will be burning the carbs you have before and during workout. What do you guys think Pshannon and Tanner Fox?
That is exactly what I have been doing (even with sweet potatoes) and it's been working great. I would assume increasing the PWO carbs would allow you to shift to focus more on muscle gains. You will have to be careful to find the sweet spot if you want to maintain your current condition thought. I would slowly start to add in more carbs and keep an close eye on what it is doing though. I think if you kept it clean (and maybe throw some dirtier treat on your heavy days that would be a damn good start in getting to where you want to be. Regardless IMO the IntraWO carbs would stay if I was focusing on lean mass gain.
Carb : HIGHLY BRANCHED CYCLIC DEXTRINhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15900642http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10664836http://www.sportsci.org/2006/wghdrinks.htmThis is a fun thread.
Only problem that 25g serving is pretty low. I would use at least 50g probably and for those of us with more muscle mass then upwards of 75 to 100g at the top end.My question was gonna be what does HBCD mean, I guess that answers it.
Ibob, I bought and used the new Gaspari PRoduct Glycofuse yesterday which has 25g cyclic dextrins per scoop and it was great, I have the same issue with dextrose during the workout and no such issues with this product! it was really good and I must say about 30 min in the pmp was unreall!! Great intensity and endurance, I believe retail on it 49.99 aswell so very reasonable price and in my opinion a better product than vitargo or the vpx stuff
Awesome to hear. Have you noticed an enhancement with recovery?
I only took it for the first time yesterday but I felt really good leaving the gym, and into the evening, almost like I was maintaining my pump and fullness rather looking super flat until the backload started, and I looked good this morning too really hard and tight. I will keep an eye on recovery with it, but next time I am gonna do 2 scoops which is 50g carbs. instead of just 1.5
Love this thread! I too have jumped on the intra-workout protocol recently. While I haven't bought a program from meadows yet (I plan to after christmas, I've been saving up) I have used peri-workout nutrition to cut down from 200lbs 10%BF to 190lbs 6%BF (by hydrostatic) in the last 8 weeks. I am currently 6"3 190lbs 6%BF and have been structuring all my carbs around my workout. This is what I've been doing peri-workout:Pre: 10g cfm isolate, 1tbsp coconut oil, 5g creatine mono, 3g beta alanine, 3g taurine, 200mg caffeinIntra: 30g Pepto Pro (casein hydro), 50-70g Vitargo depending on what day it is in the gym, 5g citrulline malate, 5g betaine anhydrous, electrolytes, 3g leucine(basically I tried to clone Anaconda by buying bulk raw materials and formulating it myself. I also believe pepto pro and vitargo are even higher quality than the casein hydro and carbs biotest uses)1 hour post: 16oz sweet potato, 10oz free range organic chicken, fish oil, 20g pepto pro pulseThe rest of the day I just eat fat and protein and have 25g isolate right before bed. I eat around 3000 cal a day give or take depending on what day it is (on or off day, and what I'm lifting). I have done ZERO cardio during all this and have added an extra shoulders/calves day and also another "power" day of sledge hammer, tire flips, sprints, etc. My split looks like this:Monday - chest/bicepsTeusday - legsWednesday - power day/absthursday - shoulders/tricepsFriday - BackSaturday - offSunday - shoulders/calves/abs (pumping movements for shoulders, no heavy compounds)For all my workouts I start with a big compound movement with low, explosive reps and then do hypertrophy based moves beyond that incorporating drop sets, rest pause, bands, ect.I experimented with using 1/2 cup oats, 1tbsp peanut butter and 20g iso before workouts by 30 minutes, however I felt my fat loss was better just doing the protocol above. Pshannon how do you feel about the pre-workout carbs? Do you tell a huge difference with recovery or your ability to push yourself during your lift? Now I am transitioning to working on gaining lean mass while maintaining my current level of conditioning. I was considering using this same peri-workout protocol but incorporating more of a CBL time eating program at night. How do you guys think using peri-workout nutrition affects CBL? DOes it affect your ability to backload like kiefer does? ie: pizza, ice cream, etc. I would think that it would decrease the level you deplete glycogen stores since the body will be burning the carbs you have before and during workout. What do you guys think Pshannon and Tanner Fox?
That is exactly what I have been doing (even with sweet potatoes) and it's been working great. I would assume increasing the PWO carbs would allow you to shift to focus more on muscle gains. You will have to be careful to find the sweet spot if you want to maintain your current condition thought. I would slowly start to add in more carbs and keep an close eye on what it is doing though. I think if you kept it clean (and maybe throw some dirtier treat on your heavy days that would be a damn good start in getting to where you want to be. Regardless IMO the IntraWO carbs would stay if I was focusing on lean mass gain.
Tanner do you use pre-workout carbs? Or do you do something similar to what I was doing?In your opinion, do you think doing backloading more like CBL advertises (dirtier) would change things from doing it clean?
I usually get off of work at 5pm and am training by 5:30pm so I don't have time to get preWO carbs in. I come home, slam some TN Buzz Saw (15g carbs), then start sipping my shake. As far as PostWO goes I just shower and have my sweet potatoes then usually a P/F meal before bed.I would say people who are genetically predisposed to have issues with gluten, HFCS, etc. should have cleaner backloads. I actually had great results with the dirtier backloads to start with but it slowly declined and eventually I just didn't feel as good and looked softer. Right now my CBL is geared towards fat loss but when it goes full swing lean gain or maintain, it will be clean food with maybe a treat at the end of the night. People are obviously getting results with dirtier backloads but over time my results slowed. I have become fairly health conscious instead of throwing ALL of my eggs in the performance basket. I am now healthier, leaner, and stronger for it.
Good stuff man, thanks. What are your body stats and how many carbs are you hitting right now on a day to day basis?
pshannon any input? I know you have been doing this stuff for awhile now, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
pshannon any input? I know you have been doing this stuff for awhile now, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
The coconut oil before your workout is kind of overkill before your workout. If your full backloading, I can understand why you do it to hit your macros, but the fat from the coconut oil isn't going to get into you blood stream quick enough (other than the MCT oil). This is stop the intra-workout shake from really serving the purpose. I have to disagree with you about the quality of Anaconda compared to making your own. I use to do your exact intra-workout shake PWO, and my recovery was really hit or miss. Now I have no problems recovering. I can tell you that if I get my peri-workout nutrition perfect I can do a 2 hour leg session at 100% intensity and feel fine the next day. I workout at 5-6 pm so I always get in my pre-workout carbs. Its the right ratio of fat/protein/carbs to not make me bloated, and give me energy for a long workout.The only time that I have shitty carbs are after a legs day that has 20+ sets. Rice and sweet potatoes are staples.
Found the followingt post while reseraching cyclic/cluster dextrins:
Ok, upon further research here is what I found with the help of some smart minds at BB.com. Enhancement of Swimming Endurance in Mice by Highly Branched Cyclic DextrinBiochemical Research Laboratory, Ezaki Glico Co. Ltd. 2) Laboratory of Nutrition Chemistry, Division of Applied Life Sciences, Graduate School of Agriculture, Kyoto University A Sports Drink Based on Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin Generates Few Gastrointestinal Disorders in Untrained Men during Bicycle ExerciseBiochemical Research Laboratory, Ezaki Glico Co., Ltd. 2) Laboratory of Nutrition Chemistry, Division of Food Science and Biotechnology, Graduate School of Agriculture, Kyoto University What you will notice with both studies is that authors are from Ezaki Glico Co. "Ezaki Glico has successfully achieved industrial production of Cluster Dextrin® by applying its unique technology in enzymology. Glico has taken out substance and production patents for this product in Japan, the USA, and Europe. In addition, Glico obtained Self Affirmed GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) status for Cluster Dextrin® in July 2008."http://www.glico.co.jp/en/material/clust…../index.htm So, two studies which were both conducted by people who sell the ingredient.Please tone down any initial interest I had in the product. It might still hold promise. It just removes credibility when two studies which are quoted were both funded by the company selling it.
I don't doubt that intra-workout nutrition is crucial when it comes to maximizing muscular development/recovery but I am still not buying into the HBCD hype until more research is made available. I wonder whether Kiefer knows anything about this.
Found the followingt post while reseraching cyclic/cluster dextrins:
Ok, upon further research here is what I found with the help of some smart minds at BB.com. Enhancement of Swimming Endurance in Mice by Highly Branched Cyclic DextrinBiochemical Research Laboratory, Ezaki Glico Co. Ltd. 2) Laboratory of Nutrition Chemistry, Division of Applied Life Sciences, Graduate School of Agriculture, Kyoto University A Sports Drink Based on Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin Generates Few Gastrointestinal Disorders in Untrained Men during Bicycle ExerciseBiochemical Research Laboratory, Ezaki Glico Co., Ltd. 2) Laboratory of Nutrition Chemistry, Division of Food Science and Biotechnology, Graduate School of Agriculture, Kyoto University What you will notice with both studies is that authors are from Ezaki Glico Co. "Ezaki Glico has successfully achieved industrial production of Cluster Dextrin® by applying its unique technology in enzymology. Glico has taken out substance and production patents for this product in Japan, the USA, and Europe. In addition, Glico obtained Self Affirmed GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) status for Cluster Dextrin® in July 2008."http://www.glico.co.jp/en/material/clust…../index.htm So, two studies which were both conducted by people who sell the ingredient.Please tone down any initial interest I had in the product. It might still hold promise. It just removes credibility when two studies which are quoted were both funded by the company selling it.
I don't doubt that intra-workout nutrition is crucial when it comes to maximizing muscular development/recovery but I am still not buying into the HBCD hype until more research is made available. I wonder whether Kiefer knows anything about this.
I am always very hesitant to buy designer carbohydrates. I have been nothing but let down by them in the past. I think this HBCD is worth a shot, especially since I have trouble getting all my carbs in my backloads.
Good stuff man, thanks. What are your body stats and how many carbs are you hitting right now on a day to day basis?
I am about 248 - 250lb right now @ 12% bf. My goal would be 10% and just maintain that. Since my main goal is fat loss right now I am hitting 80g of carbs int he PWO shake and having one or two giant sweet potatoes PWO. I would roughly say about 200g worth of carbs. Then on Saturday I will have a PWO dirtier carb meal.
Rice and sweet potatoes are staples.
x2
Found the followingt post while reseraching cyclic/cluster dextrins:
Ok, upon further research here is what I found with the help of some smart minds at BB.com. Enhancement of Swimming Endurance in Mice by Highly Branched Cyclic DextrinBiochemical Research Laboratory, Ezaki Glico Co. Ltd. 2) Laboratory of Nutrition Chemistry, Division of Applied Life Sciences, Graduate School of Agriculture, Kyoto University A Sports Drink Based on Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin Generates Few Gastrointestinal Disorders in Untrained Men during Bicycle ExerciseBiochemical Research Laboratory, Ezaki Glico Co., Ltd. 2) Laboratory of Nutrition Chemistry, Division of Food Science and Biotechnology, Graduate School of Agriculture, Kyoto University What you will notice with both studies is that authors are from Ezaki Glico Co. "Ezaki Glico has successfully achieved industrial production of Cluster Dextrin® by applying its unique technology in enzymology. Glico has taken out substance and production patents for this product in Japan, the USA, and Europe. In addition, Glico obtained Self Affirmed GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) status for Cluster Dextrin® in July 2008."http://www.glico.co.jp/en/material/clust…../index.htm So, two studies which were both conducted by people who sell the ingredient.Please tone down any initial interest I had in the product. It might still hold promise. It just removes credibility when two studies which are quoted were both funded by the company selling it.
I don't doubt that intra-workout nutrition is crucial when it comes to maximizing muscular development/recovery but I am still not buying into the HBCD hype until more research is made available. I wonder whether Kiefer knows anything about this.
I am always very hesitant to buy designer carbohydrates. I have been nothing but let down by them in the past. I think this HBCD is worth a shot, especially since I have trouble getting all my carbs in my backloads.
I understand your guy's viewpoint but all you can do is give it a shot and see what happens. In my younger days I was guilty as anyone when there is hype on a certain supplement I let the placebo affect take over and it was the greatest thing ever. Times have changed a bit though and I am more skeptical. Are HBCD's like stacking testosterone and tren? Will it make girls like you? No...but it is a natural way to boost performance. Jason, I know Kiefer is alot more research oriented than Meadows is but if the studies aren't out yet, try and do a n=1 experiement on yourself. If you get huge blood sugar swings and loss of performance with dextrose during the WO and HBCD's allow you to train harder without these side affects, I don't think you need to see any studies as the proof is right in front of you.
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