- This topic has 8 voices and 20 replies.
-
Posts
-
So I'm hoping to have an open and honest debate about the efficacy of CNS as an effective and efficient fat loss protocol.My background 2 years experience using CNS/CBL. 17 years lifting/nutrition experience. Here's my issue I want to discuss. I've had limited success both on myself and with friends I've coached using CNS as an effective/efficient fat loss protocol. Previously both for myself and for friends/family that I've coached in fat loss I've used the typical bodybuilding high protein/low-no carbs/low-mod fat type diet of lean meats, veggies, and modest amounts of fat such EVO, almond butter, avocado, fish oil, combined with a weight lifting program and HIIT and LIIS cardio.I myself went from 240lbs down to 163 at 9% bf in 7 months following the standard cutting diet mentioned above.When I applied CNS to go from 17%bf to 10%, I followed the diet to a T, zero slip ups, carb nights were moderated, no cardio except HIIT 2 days per week, lift 4 days per week. I followed it for 12 weeks and lost only 8-lbs of fat which took me from 17% down to about 14-15%. Although the results are ok at best, they don't even come close to what I feel I could have achieved had I followed the typical bodybuilding cutting diet in the same amount of time.Same thing with my friends/family that I've coached on the diet, several of them had more than 50+lbs of fat to lose, and after 6-8 weeks on the diet, their fat loss was mediocre at best, and this is following it to a T. 1:1 ratio on everything, moderated carb nights, training 4 days per week. After 8 weeks one friend only lost 10lbs, which is not even in the range of margin of error when accounting for water weight.Meanwhile I have people following standard cutting diet and their bf is just melting off, one person is down 100lbs of fat in 11 months. I haven't been able to find any evidence on this forum except for one member "SCKiely" who has even come close with these kinds of results on CNS. It seems the majority of the CNS followers are having mediocre to modest fat loss at best.This post is not about bashing CNS I’m hoping to start a debate to see what could use tweaking to make it more effective and to hopefully identify some of the areas people are doing incorrectly that could help tighten the diet up. Because according to Kiefer and I will quote "I am able to get people to near death body fat levels using CNS" but I have yet to see any evidence of this. Mark Bell and Jesse Burdick certainly look lean, but they don't look any less than maybe 6-8% bf at best, probably closer to 8%. And keep in mind these are two guys who have massive muscle on their frames so it's a lot easier for them to burn fat and get lean then say the average skinny fat guy at 18% bf who wants to get down to 10. And we also don't know if they were using any PE drugs on top of the diet, which I've heard Mark Bell does do PE drugs, so that adds another level of variable to the equation.Although the upside of CNS type diet is decreased hunger, more energy levels, maintain and increase in strength in my opinion it hasn't been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is more effective than standard BB cutting diets at reaching single digit body fat levels in the most efficient amount of time possible while preserving muscle mass.I've been following the forum for a long time and I rarely see anyone losing significant fat say from 18-20%+bf below 10%. Usually it's 10-15lbs of fat going from say 25% to 18% which any non-retarded diet could accomplish.If there are any alterations I myself would add to CNS to make it more effective which I am going to incorporate and report back on my next go around it would be the following:1. You have to have calories slightly below maintenance to have significant fat loss. And yes I know the calories in vs. calories out debate like the back of my hand. I've read all of Taube’s et al books on this debate. I don't care; anecdotal evidence presents a different story. I don't know anyone and please share if you do, who has lost significant fat and gotten to single digit BF while eating at their so called maintenance calories. Even Mark Bell and Jesse Burdick who I'm sure were eating a lot, were also probably doing a massive amount of volume in the gym to burn off those calories. I believe you need a deficit whether it be created by diet or energy expenditure through training or both. I would bet anything that even the so called people who are eating at or above maintence and dropping SIGNIFICANT fat are doing a lot of training volume. Show me 10 people who can eat at maintence on CNS on do light training and lose SIGNIFICANT fat and I'll change my mind.2. You must do a significant amount of cardio type work in the gym to have any appreciable fat loss, and when I refer to cardio I mean anything, whether it be sled-pulls, prowler push, metabolic conditioning, HIIT, whatever. But just lifting alone unless its super high volume is not going to get the AVERAGE person from 20% down to 8%, I have yet to see it from just lifting alone. I would even go as far to say, it would be ok to even incorporate some LISS cardio 2-3 days per week on top of HIIT and lifting if the person has a massive amount of fat to lose. I don't care how blasphemous LISS cardio has become; it's still proven to be effective when done in moderation when combined with fat loss diet, and proper lifting program. The proof doesn't lie of the dozens of people I can point to myself included who've gotten to single digits while modestly incorporation some LISS on top of the HIIT and weights.3. Carb nights must be moderated, particularly for the fatter people. No eating 12 donuts and a quart of ice cream. More like some white rice, chicken thighs with skin, and couple bowls of rice crispies with some dextrose as sweetener.These are my main take-aways from my personal experience and that of me helping others.One last thing, I can scour the net and get pics from myself and friends who've lost massive body fat following standard cutting diets and show dozens after dozens of people who from 20-30-40% bf down to 8-10%, but can't find scant proof of any significant fat loss on people equivalent to this from Kiefer or other members on the forum. And if I'm wrong please prove to me by referring me to their pics. (And people going from 12% to 9% is not significant fat loss and is not what I'm talking about) Except for Mark Bell and Jesse Burdick, I can't find hardly any other members. So this to me means one of two things, either the diet is not effective for most people for whatever reason or most people are doing something wrong that would require expert coaching to correct. Because except for the 5 or 6 "celebrity" clients Kiefer uses I can't find any posts by other members except one member SCKiely of people who lost 30-40-50-60lbs of fat and got to single digits. Please refer me to them if I'm wrong.I'm curious what other's opinions are as the whole point of this post is to hopefully add to the knowledge and information to help make CNS more effective. I have not abandoned it I'm just not satisfied 100% that it is more effective than traditional BB cutting diets and want to see if there is a way to make it so.Cheers
think the main issue is CNS is not designed as a fat loss tool for athletes.. it was specifically designed for people who did not exercise pretty much at all.. sure it can work for many who workout but that was not it's intent and requires a bit of tuning for athletes. Also from reading on the forums and peoples logs one reason it seems many people stall is they don't eat enough. Obviously one thing that happens when you eat ULC is you lose a lot of the hunger you have when you eat a lot of carbs. Many people who were dieting before starting carb nite most likely were already on a calorie restricted diet. You then take away their hunger and they cut calories even more. This has time and time again shown to have ill effects on people and cause them to stall and are unable to lose weight because of it.But again it seems you are trying to argue CNS is not ideal for a purpose it wasn't originally designed for. But on that same note similar Cyclic ketogenic diets have been used by atheletes of all kinds for decades.. Also responding to this "Same thing with my friends/family that I've coached on the diet, several of them had more than 50+lbs of fat to lose, and after 6-8 weeks on the diet, their fat loss was mediocre at best, and this is following it to a T. 1:1 ratio on everything, moderated carb nights, training 4 days per week."i feel this is the reason so many people fail or don't do well on certain diets is because they think there is a best way for everyone which simply is not true.. maybe the 1:1 works for you and perhaps me or the next 5 people you try it on but will not work for the next 10 people you try it on... Lastly there have been plenty of people who have had amazing results on CNS and CBL just look at trevor one of the forums most active posters and his transformation.. my wife herself has now lost over 30 pounds on CNS in only about 5 months.. the trick is like any diet is to tailor it to the individual and not expect a one size fits all...
Thanks for the reply Sanosuke.Could you please elaborate on what has worked for you with CNS in terms of specifics. How much Cardio does you or or wife do if any? How big are the carb nights? Do you feel you eat at maintainence?
Thanks for the reply Sanosuke.Could you please elaborate on what has worked for you with CNS in terms of specifics. How much Cardio does you or or wife do if any? How big are the carb nights? Do you feel you eat at maintainence?
I currently don't do CNS but am actually putting together a new type of CNS specifically for putting on muscle which i will start in about a week and will log it.. my wife does no cardio and neither do I.. she lifts weights about 5-6 times a week for about 45 min to an hour and she does pole fitness classes a couple hours a week as well.. She is currently doing a carb nite every 5 days and it varies on the size.. She eats no gluten currently either. This is her log here http://athlete.io/forum/index.php?topic=15659.0I have no clue what eating at maintenance really means as I have never tracked calories.. She just recently started tracking macros just to see what she was eating but through most of the time she didn't log or track anything.
I am going to weigh in here (no pun intended), not as a SME (subject matter expert) on anything (this diet, lifting, nutrition), but primarily because I was thinking the same thing. I have been on CNS for exactly one (1) year come September 24 (save for 2 months of a recent CBL detour) and my actual weight has not changed one pound since my initial weight loss the first month on CNS. NOT…ONE…POUND. However, I have definitely seen changes in my body composition, as I have gone from a size 17 1/2 shirt to a 16 slim and from a waist size of 40 to about 36, so it has worked to a certain extent.With that being said, I would expect to be a lot further along after being on the protocol for a year. Now, I would be the first to say that there may have been some things I could have done differently (my CBL detour was a disaster) and there were some passions I pursued that worked against the program (for 3 months was in training for a 9 mile obstacle race while on CNS), but honestly, I started my weight loss journey on April 23, 2012, and here I am 18 months later and most of my fat loss came from the six weeks I did Insanity right before starting CNS. Prior to that I was on a strength training regiment that built lots of mass, but I lost no fat. Insanity I lost a lot of weight, but granted I lost muscle. However, had I stuck with that and continued on that for the next 2 or 3 months, I believe I would have gotten my body fat down to my goal of 12 to 15% and THEN move to CBL or CNS to begin building (rebuilding) muscle and take my bf closer to 10 to 12%.I think my struggle is that I NEVER varied from the program in the last year but when you search around the 'net, the average transformation following a bodybuilding style diet is about 2 years. That is going from morbidly obese to competing at bodybuilding contests at an amateur level. I am 18 months into my journey and since being on CNS lost about 4 or 5 percentage points of bodyfat and NO pounds after the first 3 weeks.So this weekend I made the extremely tough decision to step away from the CNS/CBL protocols and switch to more of a modified Paleo diet and shift over to Insanity workouts again for the next couple of months. I say modified Paleo, as I will be doing a lot more vegetables and lean proteins and only taking in carbs from rice/potatoes immediately following workouts (about 50 to 75 grams in the form of a PWO shake with banana and a first meal of protein and rice/potatoes). I would rather sacrifice some muscle now to lose the bodyfat I need to, and then focus on building muscle back. But I'll be back, I learned a lot and can see how I can apply it to get leaner and build muscle, but I need to get lean first. Just my two cents...
Also from reading on the forums and peoples logs one reason it seems many people stall is they don't eat enough.
I've heard this argument many times, but I just don't buy it because although yes it's true if you stay well under maintainence calories for any extended period of time eventually your body will down regulate and fat loss will plataeu. However ever single bodybuilder on the planet who's ever went from off season to contest shape has eaten in a caloric deficit. So I don't buy the argument that fat loss doesn't happen because someone is eating too little. Eating too little for too long may eventually cause fat loss to stall, but I know personally more than I can count on two hands people who lost 50+lbs while eating 1500-1600 calories a day for men weighing over 200lbs. And they lost weight consistently for 6months or more. So someone stalling out on CNS after 4 weeks of losing 8lbs because they are not eating enough just doesn't hold up to empirical scrutiny.I believe anyone losing weight on CNS type diet has to have a caloric deficit whether it come from food or physical exertion or both. Maybe a 200lb man can lose weight eating 2800 calories per day but then I would venture to bet the calories are being burned off in the gym. Show me anyone who can lose weight on CNS at maintainence calories or more without any physical activity and I have a bridge to sell you.I read Taubes book whey we get fat and although it sounds good in print, the fact is no one will ever get super lean eating the same amount of calories they burn regardless sans carbs or not.
Well, I remember Kiefer mentioning somewhere that you actually need a dificit. It just doesn't need to be huge. On the “loosing fat while on maintainance” thing: That only works when you have periods of underfeeding and a refeed (like pre-(deficit) vs. postworkout (surplus) on CBL or ULC (deficit) vs. Carbnite (surplus) on CNS). I guess, many people, inluding my wife and me, had not much of deficit on weekdays but still a Carbnite which in the end equals a slight surplus. Same goes for CBL's ULC part. Anyway, since we loosely track calories once a week the fat comes off easily. Some people can do it without, some need that guidance. But you do need some kind of deficit, yes. Compare it to the AD, which isn't that much different to CNS. Di Pasquale clearly states that you need a deficit. And the AD works.
Also from reading on the forums and peoples logs one reason it seems many people stall is they don't eat enough.
I've heard this argument many times, but I just don't buy it because although yes it's true if you stay well under maintainence calories for any extended period of time eventually your body will down regulate and fat loss will plataeu. However ever single bodybuilder on the planet who's ever went from off season to contest shape has eaten in a caloric deficit. So I don't buy the argument that fat loss doesn't happen because someone is eating too little. Eating too little for too long may eventually cause fat loss to stall, but I know personally more than I can count on two hands people who lost 50+lbs while eating 1500-1600 calories a day for men weighing over 200lbs. And they lost weight consistently for 6months or more. So someone stalling out on CNS after 4 weeks of losing 8lbs because they are not eating enough just doesn't hold up to empirical scrutiny.I believe anyone losing weight on CNS type diet has to have a caloric deficit whether it come from food or physical exertion or both. Maybe a 200lb man can lose weight eating 2800 calories per day but then I would venture to bet the calories are being burned off in the gym. Show me anyone who can lose weight on CNS at maintainence calories or more without any physical activity and I have a bridge to sell you.I read Taubes book whey we get fat and although it sounds good in print, the fact is no one will ever get super lean eating the same amount of calories they burn regardless sans carbs or not.
yes of course many will lose weight when they heavily restrict intake but again not everyone will.. people are under the assumption everyone utilizes calories the same exact way which simply is not true at all.. Which is why you see huge changes from some people and hardly any from another person.. I'ts also why I said you need to tailor and adjust and eating/training plan to each individual person.. the more people rely on some set formula as a one size fits all the more they will see it not work on people.. And again I have no clue how you calculate "maintenance" calories on anyone.. here is a good quick read about calorieshttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129158/
I have been extremely lean quite a few times and am confident I can get there fairly easily. You need to create an environment to optimize hormone production by adequate rest and fat intake, but do not kid yourself that getting extremely lean is a math equation. I dont know anyone barring genetically elite that doesnt need to be precise to get to 6% bodyfat. Most people are just way too impatient and throw the baby out with the bathwater when fat loss stalls.
Ok, I lost 36 kgs over 51 weeks being coached by a well known prep coach who utilises massive 12 hour carb refeed s once per week, very similar to cns.I ate low carb 50 g or less for Six days and ate 1000g plus of low fat high gi carbs on the seventh. The six days were low in fat as well though and therein lay my deficit. Did 30 mins of walking five days per week plus four days weights.i plan to cut again using a form of CNS but I agree there still has to be a deficit somewhere. Will use the high fat and HIIT to hold on to mass whilst losing fat.
awesome job man!:) i think one thing people have trouble getting around is while you may need a deficet somewhere it doesn't need to be drastic(also figuring out what's a reasonable deficet can be tricky for some people) and I know keifer talks about this several times.. people stall and assume they need to drop food even more even when they are already eating almost nothing.. a lot of other factors can be going on that's keeping weight on them
Ok, I lost 36 kgs over 51 weeks being coached by a well known prep coach who utilises massive 12 hour carb refeed s once per week, very similar to cns.I ate low carb 50 g or less for Six days and ate 1000g plus of low fat high gi carbs on the seventh. The six days were low in fat as well though and therein lay my deficit. Did 30 mins of walking five days per week plus four days weights.i plan to cut again using a form of CNS but I agree there still has to be a deficit somewhere. Will use the high fat and HIIT to hold on to mass whilst losing fat.
You have had great results. What was your volume like on the days you lifted?
Great job @Proplanner!!
Really interested to see how this goes. I too keep questioning my ability to stay on this diet. I love the stuff we get to eat during the week and i enjoy my carb nites, even when i keep them clean, but i'm only down about 8 pound or so in 3 months, and maybe 3 inches around my waist, and I've done similiar things in the past and lost close to 12 inches in the same time frame (granted, i probably lost more muscle but that's a big difference)I'm going to stick with it till December, i just hope i don't look back and regret the decision to do so.
Proplanner, HOLY SHIT!!!!! That is freaking impressive man. You look amazing! Shredded to the bone man.Proplanner I have a few questions if you don't mind answering. First, and pardon if the answer to this question seems obvious, I just want to know your take, if your previous method was obviously so damn effective, why would you abandon it to get lean and do CNS? Secondly, if you don't mind sharing, how tall are you and how much did you weigh in that shredded pic?Were you taking any hormone replacement testosterone or performance enhancing drugs during time that you reached that insane conditioning?Last question, How much grams of fat and protein were you taking on the 6 low carb days? What did a typical meal day look like? Also what did you typically eat on the refeed day? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just blown away by your results and how shredded you are and want to know more.Thank you very much.p.s. And thank you guys for this lively debate this was exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to have that might help bring value to the community and help others who might be stuck or not sure what is wrong. I think the main take away is if your stalling cut back on some calories by maybe 100-300 per day and see where you go after a few weeks or add in a little bit more cardio.
Ok, I lost 36 kgs over 51 weeks being coached by a well known prep coach who utilises massive 12 hour carb refeed s once per week, very similar to cns.I ate low carb 50 g or less for Six days and ate 1000g plus of low fat high gi carbs on the seventh. The six days were low in fat as well though and therein lay my deficit. Did 30 mins of walking five days per week plus four days weights.i plan to cut again using a form of CNS but I agree there still has to be a deficit somewhere. Will use the high fat and HIIT to hold on to mass whilst losing fat.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.