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After discovering the Paleo Diet last April, I spent a year “cleaning up” my diet and sticking to Paleo Foods and cutting out the processed crap that I used to eat. I'm exactly 6 ft tall, male, and from April 2013 – April 2014, I went down from 230 lbs to 190 lbs. Really though, I hit 190 in February and not only did my weight plateau, it felt like my body “type” also plateaued. After being a casual Kiefer fan during that year of weight-loss, I heard some interviews that really hit home and I decided to get CNS and CBL to shake things up a bit. If I had to guess, I'd guess my body fat percentage is below 20% but not down to 15%. I lift heavy 3x's a week, and do one morning of basketball.Here’s where my question comes in…based on that schedule, am I better off going with Carb Nite, or Carb Backloading? I spent the first 2+ weeks of April doing CNS, but felt tired when I lifted, and felt like I wasn’t getting enough carbs to keep up with my lifestyle. I also have 3 little kids. So I switched to CBL since then. I’m a bit confused though on how many Carbs/Calories I should be eating. I know not to base my diet on “Counting Calories”, but I also know they are a factor in the grand scheme of things, and tracking my meals helps me more with getting the proper Macro breakdown. Since starting CBL, I’ve been around 2400 a day on average. Not depriving myself to stay under, not gorging myself to hit that amount, that just seems like an amount that my body is comfortable with on a daily basis. Is that an appropriate amount to re-shape my body as a 6’0 male, at 193 lbs, and about 18% body fat, who is trying to lose some love-handles and belly fat?Also, what should my carb amount be? Based on Kiefer’s appendix C (Delta-Weight Chart), I lost about 3 lbs during the 10-day-introduction phase, which he suggested means I eat about 273 g of Carbs on a backload. Am I reading that right? Because then when I look at the 2nd chart in appendix C (BW to Carbs Calculator), if I say my ideal bodyweight is 186, it says I should eat 651 Carbs. I must be missing something there. I’m sure it’s me, but I’m stumped at how there could be such a large difference. I thought maybe the 2nd chart was “Carb Calories”, but it specifically says Carbs (g).Here’s is my current plan, tell me if you think it’s a good idea, or I’m missing out somewhere. I’m only 6 weeks into the program, but I feel like I’ve done a year’s worth of reading/podcast/learning in the past 6 weeks. Here’s what I’m thinking about trying:Lift Heavy on Tuesday/Thursday/Sunday, with Friday being my 45 min of full-court bball. On Monday/Wednesday/Saturday I just do my normal activities (I’m a teacher, so I’m on my feet a lot during the day, and I have 3 little children to chase around). When I spent 2 weeks doing CBL and I backloaded on Tuesday night, Thursday night AND Sunday night, it seemed like too much, so I was planning on a small Tuesday night backload after lifting (carbs with dinner and maybe a carb snack later = 120-140 g of Carbs), then my big backload on Thursday night. Hopefully then glycogen will be restored from my lift, and it’ll give me the necessary energy for Friday morning hoops. Then spend Fri/Sat/Sun/Mon/Wed at the 30 g or less.People who have had success on CBL…am I missing anything here? After all my lifting sessions I’ve been doing the 5g Leucine + 5g Creatine about 30 min after lifting, and on the Tue/Thur sessions I’ve also been mixing in a very ripe banana.
1) It depends, at the guess-timated body fat range you could continue doing CNS for a while longer. I assume you weren't getting enough fats and protein into your diet if you felt tired, and not getting enough sleep. I understand the three kids, but the massive amount you have while teaching. Calories do matter in the end, HOWEVER macros are the determining factor. What do those look like?2) The amount is to "re-fill" glycogen, and the BW to Carbs Calculator shows the max amount your muscles can possibly store. It could be a number to try and hit, but necessary to do so. It would depend on how much muscle your body does have and what style of training you're doing. The 650g is a max ballpark. Experimenting based upon needs and goals.3) If you lift in the evenings, backload PWO. The amount again is based upon needs, and how you feel. How do you determine if it felt "too much"?
Tex, thanks so much for the reply! It'll be nice to get some questions answered so i can do some tinkering. I literally record everything i eat so i have good info to go off of and am able to do some tinkering. I am a math teacher, so the recording and analyzing of data is right in my wheelhouse.Coming off of Paleo, i feel like i was getting enough Fat/Protein, but it could've been my ratio that was off. During CNS i was consistently at 65%+, Fat 25%+, and 5% Carbs (never over 30 g). I do almost all my tracking now to see my macros, i definitely agree that calories matter only slightly. I noticed during CNS that my lifts were dropping a bit, and for the first time in a decade, my sex drive seemed to drop some too. That was when i went to CBL.As for sleep, i feel like my sleep is decent. With a 2/4/6 year old in the house, i feel like i'm finally sleeping through the night consistently. I'm in bed by 10:30 and up around 6. This is after years of around 6 hours of sleep, and getting up in the middle of the night to help with baby duties.As for my lifting, because of my teaching/family schedule, i lift at prime time on Tue/Thur (3:30 - 4:15), and then on Sunday i lift in the morning, about 8:30 - 9:15. Based on Kiefer's schedule, seems to me like i should be backloading from about 5pm - 8pm on Tue/Thur, and then again on Sat Night for Sunday morning's lift. That just seems like a lot of Carb Nites. I know they work on different aspects of body systems, and that the backloads are supposed to be fewer carbs than CNS, but it still seemed wrong. Like my carbs were too high and over-compensating for only 3 days of lifting.If your advice is to just "hang tight", i can do that. I just don't want to be making any big errors. I arbitrarily set my "goal weight" at around 185, and it's hard to hit 185 g of Protein, even though i feel like i eat meat for lunch/snack/dinner. But truthfully I don't care what the scale says if i can see the body fat coming off.
65% protein? Or 25% protein? I would have protein around .8-1g/BW and fats ranging from .6-75g/BW on ULC days and the same can range with days you backload. Fats could be lower if need be without worry. CBL and CNS are two different animals. You're not refeeding for six hours but roughly 2-3 hours as a starter but not as much either. A dinner and maybe a small snack an hour later.
I heard Kiefer on a Q&A say that when doing CBL, that the Protein: Fat should be around 0.75:1(give or take), but really try stay between 0.5:1 and 1:1 at the highest when trying to shred fat. Therefore, for example, when I went 193g Fat, 194g Protein, 25g Carbs (useable), that put me right at 65% Fat, 29% Protein, 6% Carbs (calorically). Since going Paleo last March, the one thing I’ve made sure of is that I get all my meat sources from Grass-Fed cows, and I eat Meat for lunch/dinner every day, with usually something little for a snack after school. And after all that work, unless I’m having Chicken Breast for dinner/lunch, I find it really hard to hit my weight in protein, while keeping the fat low. Do you think a high quality Protein Powder is crucial? Without it, I’m getting to about 140-160g of Protein every day with my lifestyle. It seems hard to believe that 20 – 40 g more of a protein drink is the one thing that’s keeping me from leaning out, but if that’s a possibility I am willing to give that a shot.All right Tex, since you clearly “know the ropes” and nobody else is taking advantage of your willingness to advise right now, let me throw this at you (and anybody else reading). I’m going to give you an example of what my meals look like on a workout day vs. non-workout day, and if you have any advice on where to change something up…let me know and I’ll give it a shot. It feels like for the amount of work I’m putting in, I’m not getting out equal results. But again, if you read this and think I have it all dialed in and I just need to just have some patience, that’s a totally acceptable answer too.Non-workout day:Breakfast – 1 cup of black coffee, and some water throughout the morning. Since going Paleo last year, I lost my hunger for breakfast. Actually, never really had one but forced myself to eat because that’s what the doctors said!Lunch (at noon) – A vegetable (usually green beans or broccoli or romaine lettuce), about ½ lb of grass-fed beef cooked in some way (hamburger patty/Greek gyro style/low-carb chili/taco style), and then ¼ C. of nuts.Snack (after school) – A romaine or green-leaf salad with a few nuts, a little feta, a piece of bacon, vinegar/oil. Might have a cheese and/or beef stick (grass fed) with it if lunch was small.Dinner (example) – Tacos for the kids/wife, I’ll have mine in a bowl. Again, ½ lb of grass-fed beef, some romaine, maybe cheese, been adding sour cream lately, and some homemade guacamole. Then for a “dessert” if I’m in the mood, I might just have a T. of Coconut Manna or 1 T. of organic Peanut Butter.That’s about it. The meal I listed puts me at: Fat = 155g, Protein = 120g, Carbs = 20 g (useable), Calories = 2100. On a workout day: I’d have the same thing for Breakfast + LunchPost-workout “shake” (30 min after workout): 5g Leucine + 5g Creatine + Ripe BananaDinner: Same as above but add in White Rice with my Taco Bowl, and then maybe a sweet potato along with the meal. Then throw in a little dark chocolate an hour later for a snack if I’m still hungry.That would put me at: Fat = 176g, Protein = 131g, Carbs = 96g useable, Calories = 2700.Now that I see my list, it looks like my Fat content might be a little high so I can pull out a fewer of the “fatty” parts of my day, but even after eating a full pound of grass-fed beef, and a little bit of meat/cheese at snacktime, it’s frustrating seeing my Protein numbers so much lower than the fat.Any suggestions? Is that enough carbs to get the "backload" effect? Should I just resign myself to the fact that I need a protein shake in the afternoon for a while, at least while I’m trying to cut fat?
I heard Kiefer on a Q&A say that when doing CBL, that the Protein: Fat should be around 0.75:1(give or take), but really try stay between 0.5:1 and 1:1 at the highest when trying to shred fat. Therefore, for example, when I went 193g Fat, 194g Protein, 25g Carbs (useable), that put me right at 65% Fat, 29% Protein, 6% Carbs (calorically). Since going Paleo last March, the one thing I’ve made sure of is that I get all my meat sources from Grass-Fed cows, and I eat Meat for lunch/dinner every day, with usually something little for a snack after school. And after all that work, unless I’m having Chicken Breast for dinner/lunch, I find it really hard to hit my weight in protein, while keeping the fat low. Do you think a high quality Protein Powder is crucial? Without it, I’m getting to about 140-160g of Protein every day with my lifestyle. It seems hard to believe that 20 – 40 g more of a protein drink is the one thing that’s keeping me from leaning out, but if that’s a possibility I am willing to give that a shot.
Oh okay, see I was confused on what you referrenced your percentages on. On your ULC days, that can be a reasonable amount of fat. Me personally I keep mine between .6-75g/BW. This could be something you can try to do as well. On the days I backload, my meats are generally lean or I don't add much fats so it is very close to .5g/BW. I always keep my protein 1g/BW if not higher. A whey isolate is crucial (along with leucine and creatine) as part of your PWO Shake only. Now you can try to use the AM Shake from the book. (Coffee mixed with whey and MCT Oil or Coconut Oil) Are you drinking a pre-made protein shake? Like those bottled "crap"? I say that because honestly, they're filled with very little protein and a bunch of none-needed "crap". Plus a waste of money, I've seen folks use it once in a while during a CN or Backload depending on use. (Another story)
All right Tex, since you clearly “know the ropes” and nobody else is taking advantage of your willingness to advise right now, let me throw this at you (and anybody else reading). I’m going to give you an example of what my meals look like on a workout day vs. non-workout day, and if you have any advice on where to change something up…let me know and I’ll give it a shot. It feels like for the amount of work I’m putting in, I’m not getting out equal results. But again, if you read this and think I have it all dialed in and I just need to just have some patience, that’s a totally acceptable answer too.
No disrespect sir, but that made me laugh a bit. ;D I'm no guru, but I do try and like to help folks as much as possible. Sometimes patience is the key, and what we need to learn. I've been at this for almost 4 years now, and it does take time to understand the body after making this an ultimate lifestyle change. I do understand the frustration part of this.
Non-workout day:Breakfast – 1 cup of black coffee, and some water throughout the morning. Since going Paleo last year, I lost my hunger for breakfast. Actually, never really had one but forced myself to eat because that’s what the doctors said! Add some HWC (heavy whipping cream) to this if you want and don't have a problem with cow dairy. If you do, maybe some full fat coconut milk from the can, or coconut oil.Lunch (at noon) – A vegetable (usually green beans or broccoli or romaine lettuce), about ½ lb of grass-fed beef cooked in some way (hamburger patty/Greek gyro style/low-carb chili/taco style), and then ¼ C. of nuts. What is the "low carb" chili seasonings cut with? Meaning the ingredients. Most I find contain maltodextrin, or dextrose. Even sugar.Snack (after school) – A romaine or green-leaf salad with a few nuts, a little feta, a piece of bacon, vinegar/oil. Might have a cheese and/or beef stick (grass fed) with it if lunch was small. Be careful with over consumption of nuts, and cheese. If not careful 1) most folks tend to over eat them without realizing the actual serving size, and can be converted into fat stores (IF OVER CONSUMED) 2) the cheese can add up with stallment, but not that crucial. Just making you aware. The beef stick isn't bad, but again just careful with what it is "cut" with.Dinner (example) – Tacos for the kids/wife, I’ll have mine in a bowl. Again, ½ lb of grass-fed beef, some romaine, maybe cheese, been adding sour cream lately, and some homemade guacamole. Then for a “dessert” if I’m in the mood, I might just have a T. of Coconut Manna or 1 T. of organic Peanut Butter. I think you need more coconut oil in your meals, besides cheese, sour cream, and peanut butter. Those can add up into carbs, and not truly a great source for quality fats. Coconut oil, butter, and animal fats (left over bacon fat is amazingly helpful and delicious). Now you can have pork and chicken if you need to up the protein intake as well. That’s about it. The meal I listed puts me at: Fat = 155g, Protein = 120g, Carbs = 20 g (useable), Calories = 2100. On a workout day: I’d have the same thing for Breakfast + LunchPost-workout “shake” (30 min after workout): 5g Leucine + 5g Creatine + Ripe BananaDinner: Same as above but add in White Rice with my Taco Bowl, and then maybe a sweet potato along with the meal. Then throw in a little dark chocolate an hour later for a snack if I’m still hungry. You're not eating enough carbs at all. You're still "low carb" and your fat is way to high on the backloading days. If your ground beef is cooked and drained, I've read articles about how draining the beef lowers the fat content roughly 33%, rinising it in hot water for around 45 seconds drops it another 25%. Now what I do is I have 12oz of 85/15 ground beef a day for both lunches, I add half a tablespoon of coconut oil to them. 4oz of that is roughly 8g of fat with 23g of protein. Just offering another alternative and sharing what I do. I also have the AM Shake in the mornings. Again reduce your fat content on the days you train and backload. Increase your protein and carb intake.That would put me at: Fat = 176g, Protein = 131g, Carbs = 96g useable, Calories = 2700.Now that I see my list, it looks like my Fat content might be a little high so I can pull out a fewer of the “fatty” parts of my day, but even after eating a full pound of grass-fed beef, and a little bit of meat/cheese at snacktime, it’s frustrating seeing my Protein numbers so much lower than the fat.Any suggestions? Is that enough carbs to get the "backload" effect? Should I just resign myself to the fact that I need a protein shake in the afternoon for a while, at least while I’m trying to cut fat?
I feel like you're going to get sick of hearing this, but thanks again for the input. Even if you're not a “guru” there is a ton of value into the time you've already spent tinkering with this, and i do appreciate you taking the time with my questions.I tried the butter/mct/coffee thing last summer, but that played tricks on my gut, so i just went to full black coffee. I certainly don't mind putting heavy cream in it if that will be a benefit to me, but to me it doesn't make the coffee taste better. And it seems like that's going to up my fat content, which it looks like i should be keeping lower.As for the cheese/nut thing, i could definitely see myself going overboard with those, so i literally measure out my cheese/nut intake. I mentioned i'm a math guy, just makes sense, right? Plus, it helps me with the tweaks when i know i've been consistent with my measurements.As for coconut oil, i do have some of that at home, but that also seems like a high fat food that won't necessarily help my protein numbers. I'm fine cooking with coconut oil, but i do tend to use grass-fed butter as my go-to cooking substance. I'll put a 1-2 T with Cinnamon on my Sweet Potatoes, I'll use 1-2 T when i make eggs, that's usually what i fall back on.That last paragraph of comments though is exactly the thing i was trying to figure out originally...am i eating too few carbs on my backload day. So, thank you for that. Do you think i should shoot for closer to 200? Even higher? I know that too few AND too many carbs can mess a person up. As for the "cutting fat" on lifting days, does it makes sense then to cut back on a few of the fattier things (oil on salad/cheese/sour cream) and increase the amount of meat i add to the meal? Maybe on lifting days, no "salad" with the oil/few nuts/etc, and cut the cheese/sour cream/avocado in half, while increasing to a full pound of beef for tacos, for example?
I feel like you're going to get sick of hearing this, but thanks again for the input. Even if you're not a "guru" there is a ton of value into the time you've already spent tinkering with this, and i do appreciate you taking the time with my questions.I tried the butter/mct/coffee thing last summer, but that played tricks on my gut, so i just went to full black coffee. I certainly don't mind putting heavy cream in it if that will be a benefit to me, but to me it doesn't make the coffee taste better. And it seems like that's going to up my fat content, which it looks like i should be keeping lower.As for the cheese/nut thing, i could definitely see myself going overboard with those, so i literally measure out my cheese/nut intake. I mentioned i'm a math guy, just makes sense, right? Plus, it helps me with the tweaks when i know i've been consistent with my measurements.As for coconut oil, i do have some of that at home, but that also seems like a high fat food that won't necessarily help my protein numbers. I'm fine cooking with coconut oil, but i do tend to use grass-fed butter as my go-to cooking substance. I'll put a 1-2 T with Cinnamon on my Sweet Potatoes, I'll use 1-2 T when i make eggs, that's usually what i fall back on. That last paragraph of comments though is exactly the thing i was trying to figure out originally...am i eating too few carbs on my backload day. So, thank you for that. Do you think i should shoot for closer to 200? Even higher? I know that too few AND too many carbs can mess a person up. As for the "cutting fat" on lifting days, does it makes sense then to cut back on a few of the fattier things (oil on salad/cheese/sour cream) and increase the amount of meat i add to the meal? Maybe on lifting days, no "salad" with the oil/few nuts/etc, and cut the cheese/sour cream/avocado in half, while increasing to a full pound of beef for tacos, for example?
200g would be something to work with, remember you have roughly 650g of max carbs to work with. You can try the lower end and work up, or vice versa. If you're having beef, the fat content on those will be okay without the other fats. I mentioned adding CO to mine because of how I cook it. Replacing those grained fats with some CO. I normally do not add fats to meats unless it's a lean cut like certain pork or chicken. The salads you have can be just as bad as adding "ranch" if you're not careful with what you're putting in it. In the end, the macros do matter. The beef, it's ground correct? How do you normally go about preparing it? If you want to make it a full pound go ahead, but you could also benefit from splitting it up into two separate meals. The coffee with the HWC helps with sustainable energy and hunger control. It is a good idea to have in the mornings. What time do you normally finish or the last meal before bed?
Last meal before bed is usually around 6 pm. So my eating window is about noon to 6, but that's just what works in my lifestyle. I could eat again later, but don't feel like I “need” it. And if the morning is just to control hunger, I don't really have that issue in the morning. Don't feel myself getting hungry until noon-ish.I just prepare my ground beef with some traditional taco spices if it's taco night. I'll empty the fat and add a little water+spice. I always look for cumin-based, love that flavor. If it's hamburger night, I'll grill the burgers with just salt/pepper/butter on them. Steaks are the same for me...salt/pepper/butter. Whatever veggies I make, I usually use some butter and some garlic salt, so pretty plain.So, I should be "adding" 200 carbs to my normal dinners on a backload while taking fat out? So, for example on Taco night...should I consider doubling the rice/beef, and removing the cheese/sour cream?
Last meal before bed is usually around 6 pm. So my eating window is about noon to 6, but that's just what works in my lifestyle. I could eat again later, but don't feel like I "need" it. And if the morning is just to control hunger, I don't really have that issue in the morning. Don't feel myself getting hungry until noon-ish.I just prepare my ground beef with some traditional taco spices if it's taco night. I'll empty the fat and add a little water+spice. I always look for cumin-based, love that flavor. If it's hamburger night, I'll grill the burgers with just salt/pepper/butter on them. Steaks are the same for me...salt/pepper/butter. Whatever veggies I make, I usually use some butter and some garlic salt, so pretty plain.So, I should be "adding" 200 carbs to my normal dinners on a backload while taking fat out? So, for example on Taco night...should I consider doubling the rice/beef, and removing the cheese/sour cream?
Okay so I would advise you to not fast longer than 12 hours from your last meal. Try to have the AM Shake or something around that 12th hour. I would read the IF Articles off of the Athlete.io site regarding fasting. I would think that is a good idea. Don't think you're limited to only ground beef.
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