- This topic has 7 voices and 10 replies.
-
Posts
-
Can most of the various amino acid intra-workout supplements that exist that are low or no carb suffice for the intra workout nutrition vs. the CBL formula? Just from a taste an convenience factor I would prefer a pre-made amino formula versus putting the Whey/Casein/Leucine in a shaker bottle.
Keifer's newest recommendations are nothing at all intra-workout + waiting 1 hour for PWO.
Makes life easier, and cheaper too.
I agree on easier and cheaper…but it depends on the training program your on as well. I am a fan and train MountainDog style. I kept my pre workout to whey iso, coconut oil, and caffeine. However, that was not cutting it…I would be crippling sore (esp after leg days) even though i was still CBL every night. So i added peri-workout essential ammino's and highly branched cyclic dextrins to the equation to see if their would be a difference.Adding carbs to a training style is a no brainer. The Mountaindog workouts are high volume, intense, and flat out demanding. I can now train at this demanding rate, recover has improved grealty, no more crippling soreness, and workouts are most importantly progressive. SO again assess your situation, goals, recover. I already handle carbs fairly well, so adding intra-workout carbs aided my recover and also allows for amminos and anabolic carbs to be readily available in the bloodstream for workouts. recommendations are great, but assess YOUR situation and dont allow everything to always be black and white.
I take BCAA drink mix during the workout on CNS and it hasn't had any negative effects at all. If anything I feel better when I train with the BCAA than without.
I agree on easier and cheaper...but it depends on the training program your on as well. I am a fan and train MountainDog style. I kept my pre workout to whey iso, coconut oil, and caffeine. However, that was not cutting it...I would be crippling sore (esp after leg days) even though i was still CBL every night. So i added peri-workout essential ammino's and highly branched cyclic dextrins to the equation to see if their would be a difference.Adding carbs to a training style is a no brainer. The Mountaindog workouts are high volume, intense, and flat out demanding. I can now train at this demanding rate, recover has improved grealty, no more crippling soreness, and workouts are most importantly progressive. SO again assess your situation, goals, recover. I already handle carbs fairly well, so adding intra-workout carbs aided my recover and also allows for amminos and anabolic carbs to be readily available in the bloodstream for workouts. recommendations are great, but assess YOUR situation and dont allow everything to always be black and white.
The lack of soreness from Meadows protocol is actually something I question. As Kiefer pointed out, training is SUPPOSED to produce the inflammatory and oxidative compounds that make you sore. It's what causes the adaptation (hypertrophy and others) in the muscles. With intra workout nutrition you are limiting the production of these compounds.I have used both Meadows and Kiefer's nutrition protocols. I do notice less soreness on the Meadows protocol. As far as muscular growth goes, I feel they are about the same. However, I personally feel I am more responsive to lower levels of volume with Kiefer's protocol. By this I mean I feel I need less volume to achieve the same growth that I needed with intra workout nutrition. While I love training and I am a bit of a volume whore, if you take your training seriously, you must limit your training load to the minimum that is needed to trigger the response you are looking for.I don't think intra workout nutrition is useless. I think it can be useful for performance oriented purposes, but I really don't think it's needed for hypertrophy. If soreness is an issue, try lowering volume (especially in exercises the overload the stretched position of the muscle contraction), narrow your exercise variety, and increasing frequency of muscles trained.This is just my opinion based on my observations.
The lack of soreness from Meadows protocol is actually something I question. As Kiefer pointed out, training is SUPPOSED to produce the inflammatory and oxidative compounds that make you sore. It's what causes the adaptation (hypertrophy and others) in the muscles. With intra workout nutrition you are limiting the production of these compounds.I have used both Meadows and Kiefer's nutrition protocols. I do notice less soreness on the Meadows protocol. As far as muscular growth goes, I feel they are about the same. However, I personally feel I am more responsive to lower levels of volume with Kiefer's program. By this I mean I feel I need less volume to achieve the sam growth that I needed with intra workout nutrition. While I love training and I am a bit of a volume whore, if you take your training seriously, you must limit your training load to the minimum that is needed to trigger the response you are looking for.I don't think intra workout nutrition is useless. I think it can be useful for performance oriented purposes, but I really don't think it's needed for hypertrophy. If soreness is an issue, try lowering volume (especially in exercises the overload the stretched position of the muscle contraction), narrow your exercise variety, and increasing frequency of muscles trained.This is just my opinion based on my observations.
Well respected on your info. And that's the point of the whole thing, is finding out what works best for you and your goals. You mentioned that you did Meadows nutrition protocol, but wasn't clear if you have tried MountainDog style of training. But if you need less volume, then the MountainDog style would not be suited for your situation. I need more volume myself to achieve and break plateaus for hypertrophy. Ive always been a slim underweight guy. (when I take breaks from training I actually lose muscle mass pretty quick and the scale drops). For the most part Ive done a hybrid of Meadows & Keifer ( I respect both minds). AM- I keep no carb during my first two meals during dayPre- Meadows Cream of Rice recipe (Cream of rice, nut butter, whey iso)Intra- Mountain Dog MDPM/Night- CBLIf I was more resistant to carbs then I would probably stick with CBL as indicated. I just felt doing that was very difficult for me to add solid quality mass. Always open to hear eveyones opinions and protocols bc you might be able to pick up ideas worth trying and adjusting for your goals.
The lack of soreness from Meadows protocol is actually something I question. As Kiefer pointed out, training is SUPPOSED to produce the inflammatory and oxidative compounds that make you sore. It's what causes the adaptation (hypertrophy and others) in the muscles. With intra workout nutrition you are limiting the production of these compounds.
No disrespect, but where did Kiefer say this? All I can find is where he seems to say quite the opposite. ???"DH: The studies on DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) always intrigued me because, although the soreness can last a few days, biochemically, muscle respond just as they do when there's no DOMS within 48 hours. The research also shows that you should also really only experience the DOMS once or twice (assuming you continue your training regimen), but I was like you, experiencing them regularly but still gaining. As I progressed and started including higher quality protein powders--gave up crap like Muscle Milk and Designer Whey--I noticed it stopped. What I later found out is that eccentric loading, in particular, triggers damage in skeletal muscle mitochondria which can cause calcium ion leakage. It's these ions that make you sore the next day. It happens pretty much every time you train heavy. But this also triggers several protective responses like the heat shock factor cycle. Your body actually builds up proteins to protect against residual damage, but it needs adequate vitamin and protein supplies to do so effectively. The bottom line, if you're getting the DOMS on a regular basis, your nutrition sucks."From Meadows' Interview w/ Kiefer: http://athlete.io/forum/index.php?topic=9170.0
The lack of soreness from Meadows protocol is actually something I question. As Kiefer pointed out, training is SUPPOSED to produce the inflammatory and oxidative compounds that make you sore. It's what causes the adaptation (hypertrophy and others) in the muscles. With intra workout nutrition you are limiting the production of these compounds.
No disrespect, but where did Kiefer say this? All I can find is where he seems to say quite the opposite. ???"DH: The studies on DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) always intrigued me because, although the soreness can last a few days, biochemically, muscle respond just as they do when there's no DOMS within 48 hours. The research also shows that you should also really only experience the DOMS once or twice (assuming you continue your training regimen), but I was like you, experiencing them regularly but still gaining. As I progressed and started including higher quality protein powders--gave up crap like Muscle Milk and Designer Whey--I noticed it stopped. What I later found out is that eccentric loading, in particular, triggers damage in skeletal muscle mitochondria which can cause calcium ion leakage. It's these ions that make you sore the next day. It happens pretty much every time you train heavy. But this also triggers several protective responses like the heat shock factor cycle. Your body actually builds up proteins to protect against residual damage, but it needs adequate vitamin and protein supplies to do so effectively. The bottom line, if you're getting the DOMS on a regular basis, your nutrition sucks."From Meadows' Interview w/ Kiefer: http://athlete.io/forum/index.php?topic=9170.0
The carb shock book. Also I never said you are supposed to get sore after every workout. I was referring to the fact that the Meadows protocol is about using nutrition to avoid build up of inflammatory and oxidative compounds. DOMS isn't fully understood, but it is believed that the compounds I refer to are related to it. Meadows thinks that the decreased soreness you get from intra workout nutrition makes it superior. Kiefer said otherwise.Lastly, that interview you cited was 3 years ago. Kiefer is always experimenting and changing his stances.
couldn't agree more. The main principle behind everything…do what is working best for you!There is no such thing as a cut and dry nutrition, training, or recovery template.Try it out, if it doesnt work move on and adjust until you reach what works for you.For me Carbs around workout and into the night...aka Meadows/Keifer aka Keiadows
I was referring to the fact that the Meadows protocol is about using nutrition to avoid build up of inflammatory and oxidative compounds. DOMS isn't fully understood, but it is believed that the compounds I refer to are related to it. Meadows thinks that the decreased soreness you get from intra workout nutrition makes it superior. Kiefer said otherwise.
Ok, this puts your previous post in better context for those of us unfamiliar with the Meadows protocol. Thanks.
Lastly, that interview you cited was 3 years ago.
September 2012, so less than 2.5 years (and newer than CBL). But who's counting... 😛 😀
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.