Is "Starting Strength" enough working out for CBL?

[imakillerr]

I just started the Starting Strength protocol and I'm pretty excited about it, and I just learned (today, actually) about CBL, which also excites the hell out of me! Are these two programs compatible? I'm already experienced in Paleo nutrition, intermittent fasting, and have been doing CrossFit for a few years, but I want to focus more on getting stronger, yet stay lean (an possibly lose a few lbs of fat).The basic template is 3 days a week, M/W/F; 3 warm-up sets and three working sets for back squats or front squat, Shoulder Press or Bench Press, Deadlift or Power Clean on Wednesday, and strict pull-ups or chin-ups on Mon/Fri, all with a linear progression mindset. I was going to throw in one day of sprinting or Metcon work to make it 4 days of working out per week, which is all my school schedule will allow.Does this seem like the kind of workload that would fit in with the CBL protocol?

[Richard Schmitt]

As long as you lift heavy it will do your body good and make CBL work!

[tzanghi]

I ran SS with CBL and had great gains.  Especially if you are a novice lifter, you'll progress well with this combination.  The only problem with SS is it may actually get too hard to recover from on CBL when the weight starts to get heavy.

[Big_R]

I just started the Starting Strength protocol and I'm pretty excited about it, and I just learned (today, actually) about CBL, which also excites the hell out of me! Are these two programs compatible? I'm already experienced in Paleo nutrition, intermittent fasting, and have been doing CrossFit for a few years, but I want to focus more on getting stronger, yet stay lean (an possibly lose a few lbs of fat).The basic template is 3 days a week, M/W/F; 3 warm-up sets and three working sets for back squats or front squat, Shoulder Press or Bench Press, Deadlift or Power Clean on Wednesday, and strict pull-ups or chin-ups on Mon/Fri, all with a linear progression mindset. I was going to throw in one day of sprinting or Metcon work to make it 4 days of working out per week, which is all my school schedule will allow.Does this seem like the kind of workload that would fit in with the CBL protocol?

I would skip the HIT if you are going for maximum muscle gain / strength gains (assuming fat loss isn't your top priority).  I would Do CBL S.A. and just make sure you get at least 1 heavy low-rep set in to make sure tGlut is activated.  The exercise you chose are very good choices, btw... add a rowing exercise for the lats and your on your way.

[CWest05]

I just started the Starting Strength protocol and I'm pretty excited about it, and I just learned (today, actually) about CBL, which also excites the hell out of me! Are these two programs compatible? I'm already experienced in Paleo nutrition, intermittent fasting, and have been doing CrossFit for a few years, but I want to focus more on getting stronger, yet stay lean (an possibly lose a few lbs of fat).The basic template is 3 days a week, M/W/F; 3 warm-up sets and three working sets for back squats or front squat, Shoulder Press or Bench Press, Deadlift or Power Clean on Wednesday, and strict pull-ups or chin-ups on Mon/Fri, all with a linear progression mindset. I was going to throw in one day of sprinting or Metcon work to make it 4 days of working out per week, which is all my school schedule will allow.Does this seem like the kind of workload that would fit in with the CBL protocol?

I would skip the HIT if you are going for maximum muscle gain / strength gains (assuming fat loss isn't your top priority).  I would Do CBL S.A. and just make sure you get at least 1 heavy low-rep set in to make sure tGlut is activated.  The exercise you chose are very good choices, btw... add a rowing exercise for the lats and your on your way.

BigR, why would you say CBL Strength Accumulation? This to me screams density bulk. If it were me, imakiller, I would CBL with the DB protocol, every night. Maybe taking one night off. I'd drop any cardio, and eat like mad on the back-loads. If you're a novice, which I think you are, you need to make sure you're recovering. Lift heavy, stretch, foam roll if you can, eat tons of quality food, and sleep. You will gain some fat, but you'll gain a ton of muscle, and I think the SS program will work great with CBL'ing because of the ULC portion balanced with tons of carbs. Does SS recommend front squats? If not, I'd recommend focusing solely on [back] squat. Make sure to deadlift and like BigR said, add a rowing exercise. SS programming will definitely be heavy enough for CBL'ing, but if you're really feeling great, you could probably take the last set of the main lift (bench, squat, deadlift, press) to failure.CW

[tzanghi]

I just started the Starting Strength protocol and I'm pretty excited about it, and I just learned (today, actually) about CBL, which also excites the hell out of me! Are these two programs compatible? I'm already experienced in Paleo nutrition, intermittent fasting, and have been doing CrossFit for a few years, but I want to focus more on getting stronger, yet stay lean (an possibly lose a few lbs of fat).The basic template is 3 days a week, M/W/F; 3 warm-up sets and three working sets for back squats or front squat, Shoulder Press or Bench Press, Deadlift or Power Clean on Wednesday, and strict pull-ups or chin-ups on Mon/Fri, all with a linear progression mindset. I was going to throw in one day of sprinting or Metcon work to make it 4 days of working out per week, which is all my school schedule will allow.Does this seem like the kind of workload that would fit in with the CBL protocol?

I would skip the HIT if you are going for maximum muscle gain / strength gains (assuming fat loss isn't your top priority).  I would Do CBL S.A. and just make sure you get at least 1 heavy low-rep set in to make sure tGlut is activated.  The exercise you chose are very good choices, btw... add a rowing exercise for the lats and your on your way.

BigR, why would you say CBL Strength Accumulation? This to me screams density bulk. If it were me, imakiller, I would CBL with the DB protocol, every night. Maybe taking one night off. I'd drop any cardio, and eat like mad on the back-loads. If you're a novice, which I think you are, you need to make sure you're recovering. Lift heavy, stretch, foam roll if you can, eat tons of quality food, and sleep. You will gain some fat, but you'll gain a ton of muscle, and I think the SS program will work great with CBL'ing because of the ULC portion balanced with tons of carbs. Does SS recommend front squats? If not, I'd recommend focusing solely on [back] squat. Make sure to deadlift and like BigR said, add a rowing exercise. SS programming will definitely be heavy enough for CBL'ing, but if you're really feeling great, you could probably take the last set of the main lift (bench, squat, deadlift, press) to failure.CW

I would disagree that as a novice you'll need more for recovery.  You can make a lot of gains just starting without increasing food intake at all.  I think DB isn't necessary, and OP would just put on unnecessary fat.  SS doesn't recommend front squats until you can't progress after every workout, at which point it's up to you.As for a rowing exercise, Rippetoe often states that it's perfectly fine and occasionally optimal to add chins to the program.I used SA and SS to take my squat from 3x5x285 to 3x5x315 in about a month and a half, and I wasn't even doing SA correctly.  If you're just starting out at strength training, there's no need to eat backload every night right away.

[Big_R]

I just started the Starting Strength protocol and I'm pretty excited about it, and I just learned (today, actually) about CBL, which also excites the hell out of me! Are these two programs compatible? I'm already experienced in Paleo nutrition, intermittent fasting, and have been doing CrossFit for a few years, but I want to focus more on getting stronger, yet stay lean (an possibly lose a few lbs of fat).The basic template is 3 days a week, M/W/F; 3 warm-up sets and three working sets for back squats or front squat, Shoulder Press or Bench Press, Deadlift or Power Clean on Wednesday, and strict pull-ups or chin-ups on Mon/Fri, all with a linear progression mindset. I was going to throw in one day of sprinting or Metcon work to make it 4 days of working out per week, which is all my school schedule will allow.Does this seem like the kind of workload that would fit in with the CBL protocol?

I would skip the HIT if you are going for maximum muscle gain / strength gains (assuming fat loss isn't your top priority).  I would Do CBL S.A. and just make sure you get at least 1 heavy low-rep set in to make sure tGlut is activated.  The exercise you chose are very good choices, btw... add a rowing exercise for the lats and your on your way.

BigR, why would you say CBL Strength Accumulation? This to me screams density bulk. If it were me, imakiller, I would CBL with the DB protocol, every night. Maybe taking one night off. I'd drop any cardio, and eat like mad on the back-loads. If you're a novice, which I think you are, you need to make sure you're recovering. Lift heavy, stretch, foam roll if you can, eat tons of quality food, and sleep. You will gain some fat, but you'll gain a ton of muscle, and I think the SS program will work great with CBL'ing because of the ULC portion balanced with tons of carbs. Does SS recommend front squats? If not, I'd recommend focusing solely on [back] squat. Make sure to deadlift and like BigR said, add a rowing exercise. SS programming will definitely be heavy enough for CBL'ing, but if you're really feeling great, you could probably take the last set of the main lift (bench, squat, deadlift, press) to failure.CW

Simply because O.P stated drop some bodyfat i say CBL SA.  I love Density bulking (see my log)  but not at all for fat loss.... I personally think you need to have some experience with CBL before jumping to DB to avoid gaining bodyfat. Also, anytime you do a pressing movement (at least for chest) you should match the antagonist muscle group with that amount of workload as well, to maintain overall development, balance, and functionality.  Like when kiefer said guys he trained had lagging chest he worked the shit out of there back..... case and point.

[Big_R]

I just started the Starting Strength protocol and I'm pretty excited about it, and I just learned (today, actually) about CBL, which also excites the hell out of me! Are these two programs compatible? I'm already experienced in Paleo nutrition, intermittent fasting, and have been doing CrossFit for a few years, but I want to focus more on getting stronger, yet stay lean (an possibly lose a few lbs of fat).The basic template is 3 days a week, M/W/F; 3 warm-up sets and three working sets for back squats or front squat, Shoulder Press or Bench Press, Deadlift or Power Clean on Wednesday, and strict pull-ups or chin-ups on Mon/Fri, all with a linear progression mindset. I was going to throw in one day of sprinting or Metcon work to make it 4 days of working out per week, which is all my school schedule will allow.Does this seem like the kind of workload that would fit in with the CBL protocol?

I would skip the HIT if you are going for maximum muscle gain / strength gains (assuming fat loss isn't your top priority).  I would Do CBL S.A. and just make sure you get at least 1 heavy low-rep set in to make sure tGlut is activated.  The exercise you chose are very good choices, btw... add a rowing exercise for the lats and your on your way.

BigR, why would you say CBL Strength Accumulation? This to me screams density bulk. If it were me, imakiller, I would CBL with the DB protocol, every night. Maybe taking one night off. I'd drop any cardio, and eat like mad on the back-loads. If you're a novice, which I think you are, you need to make sure you're recovering. Lift heavy, stretch, foam roll if you can, eat tons of quality food, and sleep. You will gain some fat, but you'll gain a ton of muscle, and I think the SS program will work great with CBL'ing because of the ULC portion balanced with tons of carbs. Does SS recommend front squats? If not, I'd recommend focusing solely on [back] squat. Make sure to deadlift and like BigR said, add a rowing exercise. SS programming will definitely be heavy enough for CBL'ing, but if you're really feeling great, you could probably take the last set of the main lift (bench, squat, deadlift, press) to failure.CW

I would disagree that as a novice you'll need more for recovery.  You can make a lot of gains just starting without increasing food intake at all.  I think DB isn't necessary, and OP would just put on unnecessary fat.  SS doesn't recommend front squats until you can't progress after every workout, at which point it's up to you.As for a rowing exercise, Rippetoe often states that it's perfectly fine and occasionally optimal to add chins to the program.I used SA and SS to take my squat from 3x5x285 to 3x5x315 in about a month and a half, and I wasn't even doing SA correctly.  If you're just starting out at strength training, there's no need to eat backload every night right away.

Figured i would make a separate post to agree with you+1Novice trainees need to focus on understanding the importance of using an amount of volume that is appropriate for growth and what they can recover from rather than just "eat more" (and consequently get fatter).

[CWest05]

I'm not actually a proponent of the “eat more” mentality in most situations. I won't ever do a traditional bulk again myself, but I'm not a novice. I think for a novice lifter, it's probably a good idea to err on the side of overeating than undereating. I also wasn't insinuating that recovery was more important for a novice, just that I thought a few reminders about recovery would only help – that's all. Recovery is important at all stage of muscular development, but it's not the most thrilling thing to do, especially as a beginner just wanting to smash big weights.I definitely agree about muscular balance and the push/pull idea. Rip outlines his programs very well for balance and progression. Getting back to the eating though - SS is all about gaining mass. Rip says a complete novice can gain as much as 40 pounds in a year, and he recommends 4 square meals plus a gallon of whole milk a day to get there. That's a shit ton of calories. If you're going to do SS - or any program for that matter - you follow what they say. You can't just pick and choose, here and there. SS requires you eat, and if you do it right you're going to gain some fat. I don't want to sound like a dick, but OP, you should seriously take advantage of the opportunity you have as a novice. It's the only time in your lifting career that you're going to see truly linear strength and mass gains. Take advantage of it. The flip side though, is that CBL is a great opportunity to maximize the muscle gains and minimize the fat gain. I think following SS with CBL'ing will temper some of the "bulk gain" and make for some seriously awesome lean mass and strength, but you've got to accept that there's going to be some fat gain. If there's not, then you're not doing Rip's program. imakillerr, depending on what your goals are (pure strength/mass or a leaner strength/mass gain) base the number of back-loads on that. If it's pure strength/mass have very few complete ULC days. If you want to try and stay leaner, I'd take a few more ULC days. My advice would be to maximize strength and mass as a novice. Anyone who's ever been serious about weight lifting has gained a little extra body fat at some point, no matter what their current training protocols are. See what your body responsds to now as a novice when your best gains will occur. Ultimately, you should focus on lifting heavy without ego, getting your rest, and quality food. Listen to your body and monitor your progress, but don't over complicate it. Rip's advice has stood the test of time and Kiefer's CBL'ing is rooted in research and science. I think synergistically you'll get a lot of benefit out of these programs, but you've got to stick to the principles of the programs respectively. I don't mean to bash anyone else, but I'd be remisce if I told a novice to try and get bigger and stronger while still seeing abs. You don't have to go overboard and down 7000 calories a day, but don't waste a good opportunity to get really big and really strong in a hurry.Best of luck,CW

[Big_R]

I think synergistically you'll get a lot of benefit out of these programs, but you've got to stick to the principles of the programs respectively.

This is often overlooked but a lot of people will start combining principles and end up with some custom formatted plan and i agree with you,  that everything should be done as the creator of each program has intended with tweaking/modification as prescribed and/or when necessary.  This is the reason a lot of programs (in general) don't work!

[CWest05]

I think synergistically you'll get a lot of benefit out of these programs, but you've got to stick to the principles of the programs respectively.

This is often overlooked but a lot of people will start combining principles and end up with some custom formatted plan and i agree with you,  that everything should be done as the creator of each program has intended with tweaking/modification as prescribed and/or when necessary.  This is the reason a lot of programs (in general) don't work!

Yeah, I mean technically, you can't follow Rip's recommendations to the letter at the same time as CBL, with the 4 square meals and a gallon of milk he suggests. But really, all SS advocates is lifting heavy, recovering, and eating big. If you drop carbs in the morning and overload after working out, you're still eating big - if not bigger. If you stick with SS program and eat enough (not ridiculously overloading, be smart about it and keep relative track of where you're at) you really can't go wrong.Rip is a genius, and so is Kiefer. Both SS and CBL are centered around principles - and both require customizing the details and finer points based on your specific response to the training and eating, respectively.CW

[AkumaZ]

I'm not actually a proponent of the "eat more" mentality in most situations. I won't ever do a traditional bulk again myself, but I'm not a novice. I think for a novice lifter, it's probably a good idea to err on the side of overeating than undereating. I also wasn't insinuating that recovery was more important for a novice, just that I thought a few reminders about recovery would only help - that's all. Recovery is important at all stage of muscular development, but it's not the most thrilling thing to do, especially as a beginner just wanting to smash big weights.I definitely agree about muscular balance and the push/pull idea. Rip outlines his programs very well for balance and progression. Getting back to the eating though - SS is all about gaining mass. Rip says a complete novice can gain as much as 40 pounds in a year, and he recommends 4 square meals plus a gallon of whole milk a day to get there. That's a shit ton of calories. If you're going to do SS - or any program for that matter - you follow what they say. You can't just pick and choose, here and there. SS requires you eat, and if you do it right you're going to gain some fat. I don't want to sound like a dick, but OP, you should seriously take advantage of the opportunity you have as a novice. It's the only time in your lifting career that you're going to see truly linear strength and mass gains. Take advantage of it. The flip side though, is that CBL is a great opportunity to maximize the muscle gains and minimize the fat gain. I think following SS with CBL'ing will temper some of the "bulk gain" and make for some seriously awesome lean mass and strength, but you've got to accept that there's going to be some fat gain. If there's not, then you're not doing Rip's program. imakillerr, depending on what your goals are (pure strength/mass or a leaner strength/mass gain) base the number of back-loads on that. If it's pure strength/mass have very few complete ULC days. If you want to try and stay leaner, I'd take a few more ULC days. My advice would be to maximize strength and mass as a novice. Anyone who's ever been serious about weight lifting has gained a little extra body fat at some point, no matter what their current training protocols are. See what your body responsds to now as a novice when your best gains will occur. Ultimately, you should focus on lifting heavy without ego, getting your rest, and quality food. Listen to your body and monitor your progress, but don't over complicate it. Rip's advice has stood the test of time and Kiefer's CBL'ing is rooted in research and science. I think synergistically you'll get a lot of benefit out of these programs, but you've got to stick to the principles of the programs respectively. I don't mean to bash anyone else, but I'd be remisce if I told a novice to try and get bigger and stronger while still seeing abs. You don't have to go overboard and down 7000 calories a day, but don't waste a good opportunity to get really big and really strong in a hurry.Best of luck,CW

To be clear, Rip does not make GOMAD a required part of the program.  It's generally recommended for skinny bastards that have undereat and generally have difficulty putting on weight.  A lot of people jump on GOMAD as being a necessary aspect of SS, which it really is not.It really boils down to your goals and needs.  Personally I would recommend if you were doing CBL and SS, you start with SA or even Carb Nite unless you're starting off as a relatively small person.  At least until the weight starts to get to an appreciable amount.  Although Rip certainly disagrees with this notion, it's arguable that some of the early strength gains are made due to an increase in neurological efficiency.  So in the early stages, I am not so sure one could get a decent enough contraction to set the stage for CBL best.  Doing DB with this would just exasperate unnecessary fat gains.Once again, it depends on goals and where you're starting from.  It's certainly easier to do CBL with SS versus something like Stronglifts (very similar program which has you start at the bare minimum where SS has you start a higher weight) in the early stagesRegardless, I'd say following CBL (either protocol) is a better plan than GOMAD at any point

[CWest05]

Akuma makes some good points, and I am advocating eating big, but am not saying to consume everything in sight. You need to use good judgment, OP, based on your own size and especially goals. I'd say anything less than 3000 calories a day is dumb though. Depending on size, metabolism I'd wager 3500 cals overall, with attention to detail to CBL'ing principles is a good start. Adjusting from there. And it seems there's a lot of focus on me advocating eating a ton. For a person not inundated in the training/lifting community, they don't know what eating big is, especially novices. You need fuel for hard lifting. No way about it. And in case it matters I'm a lean 205. But worrying about abs and gaining muscle aren't synergistic. Everything should focus on your goals. If your goal is muscle, then train and eat in a way to maximize muscle growth and mass, if your goal is aesthetic, then tailor to that. That's the bottom line. We (responders to the OP can debate eating or training all day, but you need to focus in on what you want out of it.Best of luck,CW

[tzanghi]

Akuma makes some good points, and I am advocating eating big, but am not saying to consume everything in sight. You need to use good judgment, OP, based on your own size and especially goals. I'd say anything less than 3000 calories a day is dumb though. Depending on size, metabolism I'd wager 3500 cals overall, with attention to detail to CBL'ing principles is a good start. Adjusting from there. And it seems there's a lot of focus on me advocating eating a ton. For a person not inundated in the training/lifting community, they don't know what eating big is, especially novices. You need fuel for hard lifting. No way about it. And in case it matters I'm a lean 205. But worrying about abs and gaining muscle aren't synergistic. Everything should focus on your goals. If your goal is muscle, then train and eat in a way to maximize muscle growth and mass, if your goal is aesthetic, then tailor to that. That's the bottom line. We (responders to the OP can debate eating or training all day, but you need to focus in on what you want out of it.Best of luck,CW

I disagree strongly with the recommendation of at leas 3000 calories.  That's not even what Rippetoe suggests for women.  Just follow the normal CBL guidelines and make sure you backload after each workout.  If you don't start see the weight start to move up regularly, then you can readjust and add in more food, but 3000-3500 calories a day for a woman is not going to get her lean results.  I'd have no problem with 3000 calories on a backloading day for her(contingent upon size), but not everyday.

[caleb_m]

OP: what is your current height and weight? Rippetoe most definitely does not recommend GOMAD for anyone but mockingbirds who need to put on weight to enhance their leverages. He has said on several occasions that going to a lower-carb/paleo-type diet is useful for lifters when or if their bodyfat climbs too high. You should read http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/a_clarification#.UHykUWdW2So by Rippetoe. What people most often misunderstand about SS, though, is that it is a baseline strength-training program for novice lifters. In other words, people that can increase their weight incrementally each workout. It doesn't last forever and works best and lasts longer with a fairly large caloric intake and lots of protein. Once the 3-6 month novice phase is over it's time to move onto a more sophisticated weekly periodization plan such as the Texas Method. And yes, generally CBL and SS should be compatible so long as you're eating enough. An epic squat session will really take it out of you...

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