Ketogenic + Leucine

[Caleb Basinger]

Hello,

For 9 months, I did CNS.
For 1 month, I did CBL.
Neither of these were optimal for various reasons that I won’t go into here. Okay, mostly it’s because I’ve lost nearly all the fat I wanted to lose (thanks to CNS), but I never had any energy and endurance for my real passion, which is Tennis. CBL didn’t work for this either. To even have the energy to play, I literally had to carb-load an hour before tennis. I don’t want to have to do this anymore.

So I’m ready to try something new. This time, I’m experimenting with being fat-adapted and ketogenic. 3 weeks in, I can already tell that my energy is up, and I can now last through some grueling 3-hour sets. But knowing what I know from CNS, I will probably need something as not to go catabolic. But in this experiment, the idea would be to stay fat-adapted as best as possible. I’m thinking of taking a carb-less leucine + protein ISO shake in the evening, once a week. Any thoughts on this experiment? Any words of advice?

Thanks.
Caleb

[Makoto Tomizawa]

I think it’s a great experiment. The reason why I say this is because I’m pretty much doing the exact same thing. I was just gonna do Carb Nite for a while, but then noticed my energy and strength have been increasingly going up since starting the keto run. I’m also eating a lot more “calories” than before, and I’m steadily losing fat. Honestly, I’ve never felt better (no energy crash, mental focus, being able to jump right out of bed in the morning). Please keep me posted on this. I’m logging my experience on my log as well. I’m on day 11, and I have been going as far as cutting out all vegetables (except for spices and the very occasional peanut butter).

Caleb Basinger wrote:

But knowing what I know from CNS, I will probably need something as not to go catabolic.

^What do you mean by this? As far as I know, being in a ketogenic state is muscle sparing. Even when not in ketosis, if you’re getting in ample amounts of protein and fat, there shouldn’t be any problem with lean tissue loss. After lifting, just get the insulin spike to stop unnecessary catabolism with leucine and protein or something (at least that’s what I do).

Based on the numerous things I’ve read/heard (recent research reviews, podcasts, other people’s experience logs), I have some views of my own (and I am by no means an expert this field, so it’s just my speculation and I could be way off):
– Thyroid issues are not really issues… the lowered thyroid may be because the body is more sensitive, thus not needing as much output
– Metabolism won’t slow down, as long as energy requirements are met
– Gluconeogenesis isn’t a huge issue, as it seems like the body converts only the necessary amount to glucose, and this can come from both protein and fats (the glycerol portion of the triglycerides). Also, this process itself takes a lot of energy, thus even with high protein, while insulin may rise to clear the amino acids (which also require energy, if I’m not mistaken), in the absence of carbs you’d still be using fat for said energy
– It takes a longer amount of time than what most people think to become fat-adapted.

This gets me to think that carb ups aren’t all that necessary. Of course, it’s probably highly individual, and I’m not saying I’m right either (everything I’m saying is just what I personally think, and could be totally wrong). But I also don’t think we’re giving our body enough time to actually become fat-adapted. On any cyclical diet, it’s like we’re finally starting to transition, and BOOM we introduce carbs, and we’re constantly is that no man’s land of metabolic shift. Sure, it may work, but are we REALLY reaping the benefits of becoming fully fat adapted?

Training Log: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vuwHRdBaPVILxxLhXly_N1Ys66Hcwk4j-bM7nvKSLrI/edit?usp=sharing

[Caleb Under Construction]

After lifting, just get the insulin spike to stop unnecessary catabolism with leucine and protein or something (at least that’s what I do).

Yep, that’s pretty much what I meant. But also, in the CNS book, it mentioned that a main reason for the carb load is to raise lepton levels often enough. As the book is pretty dated at this point, I’m not sure if that’s still trustworthy or not.

But I also don’t think we’re giving our body enough time to actually become fat-adapted. On any cyclical diet, it’s like we’re finally starting to transition, and BOOM we introduce carbs, and we’re constantly is that no man’s land of metabolic shift.

This is the same conclusion I came to with my own self-experimentation. On CNS, I could lose weight, but forget exercise. I was fatigued too easily and sometimes had scarily hypo-glycemic episodes. It didn’t matter if it was the day after the carb-load or not.

[Makoto Tomizawa]

Caleb Under Construction wrote:

But also, in the CNS book, it mentioned that a main reason for the carb load is to raise lepton levels often enough. As the book is pretty dated at this point, I’m not sure if that’s still trustworthy or not.

Yeah, a lot of cyclical diets (CKD, AD, APD) revolve around the idea of the “hormonal reset” by ingesting carbs strategically. I can’t say it makes sense, since I didn’t execute the experiment and collect data, but a lot of research seems to indicate that that’s the case. But there are also plenty of cases where the individual’s hormones are perfectly fine on a prolonged ketogenic diet.
This gets me thinking that, maybe the biggest contributor to metabolic derangement and hormonal down regulation is just not getting in enough energy. For one thing, often times people stop becoming hungry and naturally eat less on keto or ultra low/zero carb diets. It’s pretty clear that the body adjusts its metabolism based on the energy intake (so caloric restriction = slower metabolism). So then the carb feed (where almost without fail people will consume more calories) contributes to up regulating metabolism and hormones. That’s why people on calorie restriction diet can get results from either a carb refeed, or just a cheat meal/day. But then again, this “required” amount of energy is also dependent on the macro nutrient ratios. I’m seeing a lot of logs and experiments where people were deliberately eating an average of 4000~5000 kcals a day from protein and fats for like a month, and either gaining no weight or even losing. Even Kiefer has mentioned multiple times on podcasts about a guy consuming like 6000 kcals worth of oil (on top of his actual food diet) that was complaining about not losing weight. So there HAS to be a metabolic advantage in eating an ultra low carb diet. Most experiments were done by a pretty normal sized individual, and the “estimated” maintenance calories (from those useless online TDEE calculators) could be assumed to be ~2500 kcal (and that’s an overestimation). These people gained absolutely nothing (or losing), so their “maintenance” must be WAY higher. Were they to eat 2500 kcal from fats and proteins, that would be WAY under their maintenance. Back to what I said before about most people claiming reduced appetite (fortunately I don’t have this problem), they’re eating even less. So, perhaps that HUGE caloric deficit (as the body perceives) is what’s causing the metabolic/hormonal down regulation.

Caleb Under Construction wrote:

I was fatigued too easily and sometimes had scarily hypo-glycemic episodes. It didn’t matter if it was the day after the carb-load or not.

For me it was towards the end of the week (as with many others), I’d feel run down. Often times it’s described as “feeling depleted.” While that may be true, I’m really starting to feel that it was when the body was really trying to readjust to not relying on glucose for energy. But then of course, naturally, most people will take it as a sign for them to have a Carb Nite. Now we got glucose in our system again, going through the same cycle over and over again. Perhaps over time, our bodies will get used to that cycle (as the Anabolic Diet states that it takes 3-4 months of running the diet for the body to really adjust). But I see no reason to put my body through all of that for that long.

At this point, because there aren’t enough research that I’d want results from, I’m just gonna have to be my own guinea pig, that’s the only way to find out what works for me at least. Perhaps I’ll be bold enough to do a high calorie experiment myself in the near future. Sorry that got way too long, I kinda started geeking out…

Training Log: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vuwHRdBaPVILxxLhXly_N1Ys66Hcwk4j-bM7nvKSLrI/edit?usp=sharing

[Caleb Basinger]

Perhaps over time, our bodies will get used to that cycle (as the Anabolic Diet states that it takes 3-4 months of running the diet for the body to really adjust). But I see no reason to put my body through all of that for that long.

I did CNS for 9 months, but was never able to adjust well enough that I could use it for performance. Weight-loss? You bet, but not energy for Tennis or weight-lifting.

I remember a BodyIO podcast some time ago when CarbShock was new. They had the usual panel on discussing its benefits. One of the lady trainers (can’t remember which) had mentioned that CarbShock was the answer for the women that she trains that are too afraid of carbs. I remembered thinking “Is she suggesting that this could be a replacement for an actual carb nite?”.

On this Carb Shock Q&A Notes page, Kiefer kind of suggests this, but he isn’t explicit on it because he doesn’t have the data for it.
http://bjjcaveman.com/2014/10/17/carb-shock-qa-notes-kiefers-secret-body-io-podcast/

I’m curious if anyone has already tried a Ketogenic + Leucine regimen before, and how it affected their fat-adaptation & energy levels.

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