Kiefer and his constant contradicitions – getting pretty tired of it.

[38special]

I did NOT lose muscle when I switched over to eating more carbs and on a daily basis.  Why would I from just making that switch???

The problem with Carbohydrate consumption is they trigger insulin (this should sound familiar for you if you read the book?)In the presence of insulin(above baseline levels) the body will not oxidize fat cells (lipolysis).  Therefore if the body needs more calories then you are currently eating(if your blood sugar drops below baseline and insulin is still present in the blood aka exercise after eating), or being circulated in your blood as blood sugar, the body must produce that energy from a material other than fat cells.  Thus protein is broken down to provide glucose the energy requirements of your activities.  Doing this results in lower lean body weight and has a negative effect on your baseline metabolism.You should know this from reading the book

NewbieWar,For some odd reason you quoted twice at me "if I read the eBook". Yes, I read it. Many times, actually, and even highlighted it. If you're not biased and have an open mind, read this series of articles on how insulin REALLY works, and you'll realize why I completely disagree with your beliefs:  http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319

[Tim D Geisler]

NewbieWar,For some odd reason you quoted twice at me "if I read the eBook". Yes, I read it. Many times, actually, and even highlighted it. If you're not biased and have an open mind, read this series of articles on how insulin REALLY works, and you'll realize why I completely disagree with your beliefs:  http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319

Look, in the article you quoted:

Insulin doesn’t just regulate blood sugar.  It has other effects as well.  For example, it stimulates your muscles to build new protein (a process called protein synthesis). It also inhibits lipolysis (the breakdown of fat) and stimulates lipogenesis (the creation of fat).

just as I had stated.Just so we are straight, we are talking about a caloric deficit, required to lose weight (the overall goal) in this thread.When we are in a Caloric Deficit, the body is Generally Catabolic.  using you own graphOn a high carbohydrate diet, insulin is raised during the Green portions of the day (typically Western Diet consisting of 3 meals a day)If a subject is to exercise at all during a day (one typically does when they want to lose weight) and they exercise in any of the green area's above: the end result is less circulating protein.  When Insulin is in the blood stream, it is treated as a taxi, to fill up glycogen throughout the body, not for current use.And the worst part about using protein for energy, is it has a terrible efficiency.  So typically dieters lose a lot of lean mass when they want to cut back their eating.I'm not saying its impossible to maintain lean mass while dieting using carbs.  Its just more complicated.  Oh and by the way, your article is miss leading, it is not insulin's job to maintain blood sugar, it is the livers job.  The liver signals to the pancreas to produce insulin. 

[38special]

…..continue to read all articles in that series before making your personal conclusion.  Perhaps you'll continue to believe one thing, and I'll continue to believe the other.  We will agree to disagree. 

[Tim D Geisler]

.....continue to read all articles in that series before making your personal conclusion.  Perhaps you'll continue to believe one thing, and I'll continue to believe the other.  We will agree to disagree.

Perhaps you should agree to disagree.Low carb dieting is the most thoughtless diet, other than memorizing or reading nutritional labels for items carb counts.  Regardless of your articles stance on the superhero insulin it does inhibit Lipolysis.  So the energy expended during times of high insulin will not come from fat, generally protein.  If you are eating a high protein diet(one that typically is associated with a low carb diet. 65/30/5 ratio), the protein cycle completes itself in a wasteful manner and the end user benefits by seeming to be in a caloric deficit when maintaining calories.  if you are not eating a high protein diet, the protein cycle is incomplete and cortisol will catabolize your skeletal muscle's amino acids for other more important functions of the body. 

[38special]

.....continue to read all articles in that series before making your personal conclusion.  Perhaps you'll continue to believe one thing, and I'll continue to believe the other.  We will agree to disagree.

Perhaps you should agree to disagree.Low carb dieting is the most thoughtless diet, other than memorizing or reading nutritional labels for items carb counts.  Regardless of your articles stance on the superhero insulin it does inhibit Lipolysis.  So the energy expended during times of high insulin will not come from fat, generally protein.  If you are eating a high protein diet(one that typically is associated with a low carb diet. 65/30/5 ratio), the protein cycle completes itself in a wasteful manner and the end user benefits by seeming to be in a caloric deficit when maintaining calories.  if you are not eating a high protein diet, the protein cycle is incomplete and cortisol will catabolize your skeletal muscle's amino acids for other more important functions of the body.

Newbie,You choose to completely ignore the series of articles' clear explanations; I don't. Insulin does NOT inhibit lypolysis.  Physiology/biology/anatomy/endocrinology is much deeper than that. Real world results have proven a billion times over that countless have burned body fat without muscle loss while consuming plenty of carbs, both on and off the stage. I agree with you 100% that a low carb diet is the most thoughtless one, which was a major factor that convinced me to give CN a go for two years non-stop. However, I finally learned that thoughtless doesn't necessarily equal effectiveness. As soon as I reintroduced carbs daily and in large percentages I instantly started burning body fat again (not muscle...proven by body part measurements coupled with strength gains). (Why this happening seems to bother you, I don't know.)And yeah, you and I will disagree. And I say that with respect, and I expect the same from you in return. (This is the last post I will include in this thread, since I'm not here to preach my personal views nor do I have the disposable time to do so, nor do I really care what anyone else does with their own bodies. To each their own. Different strokes for different folks. But I know mcz and several readers-but-not-posters have much food for thought as to why their results have came to a screeching halt.)

[Tim D Geisler]

(This is the last post I will include in this thread, since I'm not here to preach my personal views nor do I have the disposable time to do so, nor do I really care what anyone else does with their own bodies. To each their own. Different strokes for different folks. But I know mcz and several readers-but-not-posters have much food for thought as to why their results have came to a screeching halt.)

toucheNot in the articles you posted, but the studies i just looked over, show there is a difference in reaction via trained or untrained individuals, where carbs interfere(or actually promote) with fat oxidation  at different levels of VO2max %.  Regardless I encourage people to use low carb methods and tweak it to their needs, for general fat loss

[Sakecat]

SO cloudy brain if I am to sum up your statements correctly you didn't experience success until you extended the time between your Carb Nightes correct. Are you also genetically a Aribic or related to one of those cultures. I am 75% Mediterranean and 25% of that is for the lack of a better word Moore/aribic. I am curious if there is a genetic cause to having to stretch Carb Night because I am also lacking success. I have actually at this point gained back all of the initial weight that I lost. I am at the same body fat % since I started measuring it. When I was measuring my key tones in my urine they always peak just before carb night but for rest of the week they are very low following carb night basically I am thinking for most of the weak I am not fat adapt. That said I have also been drinking on carb night and I have also been exercising the day of my carb night I am going to modify the latter rather than the sooner first but my own observations of my biology would go along with your experience. 

[cloudybrain]

SO cloudy brain if I am to sum up your statements correctly you didn't experience success until you extended the time between your Carb Nightes correct. Are you also genetically a Aribic or related to one of those cultures. I am 75% Mediterranean and 25% of that is for the lack of a better word Moore/aribic. I am curious if there is a genetic cause to having to stretch Carb Night because I am also lacking success. I have actually at this point gained back all of the initial weight that I lost. I am at the same body fat % since I started measuring it. When I was measuring my key tones in my urine they always peak just before carb night but for rest of the week they are very low following carb night basically I am thinking for most of the weak I am not fat adapt. That said I have also been drinking on carb night and I have also been exercising the day of my carb night I am going to modify the latter rather than the sooner first but my own observations of my biology would go along with your experience.

I am kinda of on the same boat with you genetically. I don't know how much Mediterranean is in me but I'm thinking like 70% and 30% is eastern european. So what I've been doing, and what's been working for me the last several months has been this diet (carb nite every two weeks):10am: bullet proof caffinated coffee (I put one tablespoon of heavy whipping cream, coconut oil, and grass fed butter)and have a whey protein shake after that.12pm:broccoli, spinach, any green veggies, chicken or some meat (like half a pound to a pound)3pm:bullet proof de-cafe coffee (same ingredients as before)5pm:casein protein shake7pm:Chicken and a saladafter work out:whey protein shakeI keep my carbs to less than 10g and keep it up for 2 weeks.the main point is I alternate between fast acting protein (fat+veggies+whey) for one meal.. to a slow acting protein (casein) the next meal. I eat enough fat so I don't feel hungry throughout the day.Sometimes I skip out lunch all together. Like 12pm I do nothing, but when I get home at like 6-7pm.. I eat crazy.. with very minimal carbs (about 10-15g) worth.I came up with this when Keifer mentioned how ramadhan was perfect for carb nite, so I could do a bit of fasting in the day time.. consuming nothing by fats from my bullet proof.. and protein shakes.. and eating a heavy solid meal when I get home. I don't recommend you do this (up to you).. but I'm doing this because I need to save money since I'm on a mortgage. But this actually has been working for me.

[cloudybrain]

.....continue to read all articles in that series before making your personal conclusion.  Perhaps you'll continue to believe one thing, and I'll continue to believe the other.  We will agree to disagree.

Perhaps you should agree to disagree.Low carb dieting is the most thoughtless diet, other than memorizing or reading nutritional labels for items carb counts.  Regardless of your articles stance on the superhero insulin it does inhibit Lipolysis.  So the energy expended during times of high insulin will not come from fat, generally protein.  If you are eating a high protein diet(one that typically is associated with a low carb diet. 65/30/5 ratio), the protein cycle completes itself in a wasteful manner and the end user benefits by seeming to be in a caloric deficit when maintaining calories.  if you are not eating a high protein diet, the protein cycle is incomplete and cortisol will catabolize your skeletal muscle's amino acids for other more important functions of the body.

Newbie,You choose to completely ignore the series of articles' clear explanations; I don't. Insulin does NOT inhibit lypolysis.  Physiology/biology/anatomy/endocrinology is much deeper than that. Real world results have proven a billion times over that countless have burned body fat without muscle loss while consuming plenty of carbs, both on and off the stage. I agree with you 100% that a low carb diet is the most thoughtless one, which was a major factor that convinced me to give CN a go for two years non-stop. However, I finally learned that thoughtless doesn't necessarily equal effectiveness. As soon as I reintroduced carbs daily and in large percentages I instantly started burning body fat again (not muscle...proven by body part measurements coupled with strength gains). (Why this happening seems to bother you, I don't know.)And yeah, you and I will disagree. And I say that with respect, and I expect the same from you in return. (This is the last post I will include in this thread, since I'm not here to preach my personal views nor do I have the disposable time to do so, nor do I really care what anyone else does with their own bodies. To each their own. Different strokes for different folks. But I know mcz and several readers-but-not-posters have much food for thought as to why their results have came to a screeching halt.)

You know, Keifer's other protocol, carbback loading would fit your life style. There have been many people who went on this protocol and lost weight. The effect of carbs act differently for sedentary people, active people, obese, thin, body builders, etc. Obese people will not do well on carb backloading, but when you go into lower numbers, thats where backloading comes in. CNS isn't all about insulin sensitivity or what happens to insulin.. it's all about what happens to the hormones that insulin affects; cortisol levels, ghrelin, leptin. The other point I want to mention is that out of all the diets out there, low carb diets has been the only diet backed by research that is proven to directly target visceral fat. In fact, it's also being used to help starve cancer cells as well. In fact, people who lose weight really fast as more inclined to develop stones in their gallbladder.. but when doing carb nite, it's harder for that to happen.. since consumption of fat is high, your liver is constantly producing bile.. not giving the body time to produce those stones (which can be painful).So there are a lot of other health benefits in doing a low carb diet, not just for losing weight mind you. But if you think carb nite's sole purpose is to deregulate insulin, then you've been looking at this diet from the wrong perspective the entire time that you've been on it.

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