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L-Leucine's effect on insulin is more than the other aminos, but relatively minor when compared to carb sources. If you're following the post-workout shake recipe, then the insulin spike you're getting from the starch powder is more than enough.
I'd argue that leucine, as part of the shake, is more important than a carb powder, as part of the shake.
Ok. Lets argue! (: Why?
Note I specifically didn't say ADDED leucine. To me, the aminos giving a bump to MPS is more important than the immediate carbohydrate because I'm just going to be eating carbs in an hour anyway. And the carb powder isn't NECESSARY for the insulin bump, the aminos with the protein powder will give enough of one.
yeah ok in that case we are in full agreement! (: Damn! Though you have opened up another avenue for discussion. Yes protein powders without carbs WILL still produce an insulin bump but without some carbs this is detrimental rather than beneficial imo. This lack of carbs will then lower blood sugar and start a cascade of stress hormones to break down proteins (tissue in this case) to bring the blood sugar back up. Hardly constructive.
Well I would say it would cause a glucagon response and cause b breakdown of glycogen, not protein.Endocrinology aside, a lot of people successfully use carb free protein shakes pretty successfully. Even myself. Kiefer recommends them and I've seen others like Layne Norton recommend them.
L-Leucine's effect on insulin is more than the other aminos, but relatively minor when compared to carb sources. If you're following the post-workout shake recipe, then the insulin spike you're getting from the starch powder is more than enough.
I'd argue that leucine, as part of the shake, is more important than a carb powder, as part of the shake.
Ok. Lets argue! (: Why?
Note I specifically didn't say ADDED leucine. To me, the aminos giving a bump to MPS is more important than the immediate carbohydrate because I'm just going to be eating carbs in an hour anyway. And the carb powder isn't NECESSARY for the insulin bump, the aminos with the protein powder will give enough of one.
yeah ok in that case we are in full agreement! (: Damn! Though you have opened up another avenue for discussion. Yes protein powders without carbs WILL still produce an insulin bump but without some carbs this is detrimental rather than beneficial imo. This lack of carbs will then lower blood sugar and start a cascade of stress hormones to break down proteins (tissue in this case) to bring the blood sugar back up. Hardly constructive.
Well I would say it would cause a glucagon response and cause b breakdown of glycogen, not protein.Endocrinology aside, a lot of people successfully use carb free protein shakes pretty successfully. Even myself. Kiefer recommends them and I've seen others like Layne Norton recommend them.
Well adrenaline's first job is liberating glycogen from the liver if its there! So on a low carb diet the stress response is likely to extend from adrenaline to cortisol which will go for protein. Maybe the protein in the diet will cover it, maybe it wont. But either way its an expensive and stressful way to get glucose.
L-Leucine's effect on insulin is more than the other aminos, but relatively minor when compared to carb sources. If you're following the post-workout shake recipe, then the insulin spike you're getting from the starch powder is more than enough.
I'd argue that leucine, as part of the shake, is more important than a carb powder, as part of the shake.
Ok. Lets argue! (: Why?
Note I specifically didn't say ADDED leucine. To me, the aminos giving a bump to MPS is more important than the immediate carbohydrate because I'm just going to be eating carbs in an hour anyway. And the carb powder isn't NECESSARY for the insulin bump, the aminos with the protein powder will give enough of one.
yeah ok in that case we are in full agreement! (: Damn! Though you have opened up another avenue for discussion. Yes protein powders without carbs WILL still produce an insulin bump but without some carbs this is detrimental rather than beneficial imo. This lack of carbs will then lower blood sugar and start a cascade of stress hormones to break down proteins (tissue in this case) to bring the blood sugar back up. Hardly constructive.
Not necessarily. You did, after all, just provide a bolus of easily-broken-down protein. So I don't see why the body wouldn't use that, instead of tissue. Basically how I'm imagining it, is if you get too high of an insulin bump from protein/leucine without carbs (which I personally feel is pretty hard to do), and you begin going toward hypo, I don't see why it wouldn't grab the stuff you just dumped in that's already being broken down and steal some of it via gluconeogenesis and use that to satiate the insulin. Just seems more efficient.
L-Leucine's effect on insulin is more than the other aminos, but relatively minor when compared to carb sources. If you're following the post-workout shake recipe, then the insulin spike you're getting from the starch powder is more than enough.
I'd argue that leucine, as part of the shake, is more important than a carb powder, as part of the shake.
Ok. Lets argue! (: Why?
Note I specifically didn't say ADDED leucine. To me, the aminos giving a bump to MPS is more important than the immediate carbohydrate because I'm just going to be eating carbs in an hour anyway. And the carb powder isn't NECESSARY for the insulin bump, the aminos with the protein powder will give enough of one.
yeah ok in that case we are in full agreement! (: Damn! Though you have opened up another avenue for discussion. Yes protein powders without carbs WILL still produce an insulin bump but without some carbs this is detrimental rather than beneficial imo. This lack of carbs will then lower blood sugar and start a cascade of stress hormones to break down proteins (tissue in this case) to bring the blood sugar back up. Hardly constructive.
Not necessarily. You did, after all, just provide a bolus of easily-broken-down protein. So I don't see why the body wouldn't use that, instead of tissue. Basically how I'm imagining it, is if you get too high of an insulin bump from protein/leucine without carbs (which I personally feel is pretty hard to do), and you begin going toward hypo, I don't see why it wouldn't grab the stuff you just dumped in that's already being broken down and steal some of it via gluconeogenesis and use that to satiate the insulin. Just seems more efficient.
Thats nice in theory but I dont know if theres a way for cortisol to act solely on ingested nutrients rather than systemically on everything. Then you'd also have to know just how much glucose is required to bring blood sugar back up vs how much can be derived from the protein. 40g of protein instance isnt likely to become 40g glucose. I realise total blood glucose is usually quite low, on the order of 5 or so total grams at any one time but why put yourself through the stress and catabolism when a small amount of carbs with the protein would spare the turmoil? You could even reduce the protein somewhat and use carbs for the difference and stay the same calorically. For the sake of health and anabolism I cant see a benefit to a protein only shake.
I really disagree that protein only shakes are catabolic. That has not been my experience at all. I also think that you will likely always have enough glycogen in the liver for this purpose if you are on Carb Nite.
I really disagree that protein only shakes are catabolic. That has not been my experience at all.
I think the net effect may be neutral or even mildly anabolic (if total intake and calories are high enough) but that is not to say that excess catabolism is not still occuring. As TCB points out ingested protein may make up for some of the glucose required to handle itself and return to homeostatis. But this is like tearing down the bricks of one wall to build another. Hardly constructive. It may serve for maintenance but doubtfully meaningful growth.
I also think that you will likely always have enough glycogen in the liver for this purpose if you are on Carb Nite.
I wouldnt think so. Metabolic issues aside (why a lot of people gravitate toward low carb diets IMO) a healthy person who can actually store a significant amount of liver glycogen will also burn through this very quickly, often just during the night sleeping. Someone with metabolic issues will have trouble storing any glycogen to start with and so will be running on empty pretty much constantly. Muscle glycogen might be sufficient on a diet like CNS if training and carb intake is in line but I cant see liver being taken care of. Since muscle glycogen is even less likely to contribute to keeping blood sugar stable it can't be relied on in this instance. BTW where in nature are you likely to get a solely protein meal without some fat or carbs to make proper use of it?
I wouldnt think so. Metabolic issues aside (why a lot of people gravitate toward low carb diets IMO) a healthy person who can actually store a significant amount of liver glycogen will also burn through this very quickly, often just during the night sleeping.
I hear this thrown around a lot. I question this. Kiefer has mentioned before this is not the case with his clients. We are talking about a rather small amount of insulin. Not much glucose would be needed to bring blood sugar back to the appropriate levels. You must also consider that most people on Carb Nite are still taking in at least 10 g of carbs per day.
I wouldnt think so. Metabolic issues aside (why a lot of people gravitate toward low carb diets IMO) a healthy person who can actually store a significant amount of liver glycogen will also burn through this very quickly, often just during the night sleeping.
I hear this thrown around a lot. I question this. Kiefer has mentioned before this is not the case with his clients. We are talking about a rather small amount of insulin. Not much glucose would be needed to bring blood sugar back to the appropriate levels. You must also consider that most people on Carb Nite are still taking in at least 10 g of carbs per day.
No offense to Kiefer but how would he know? 10g carbs? Is that somehow significant? It has been said that the brain uses an average of 120g glucose a day. Coincidentally thats also roughly what the average liver is said to hold in glycogen.
I wouldnt think so. Metabolic issues aside (why a lot of people gravitate toward low carb diets IMO) a healthy person who can actually store a significant amount of liver glycogen will also burn through this very quickly, often just during the night sleeping.
I hear this thrown around a lot. I question this. Kiefer has mentioned before this is not the case with his clients. We are talking about a rather small amount of insulin. Not much glucose would be needed to bring blood sugar back to the appropriate levels. You must also consider that most people on Carb Nite are still taking in at least 10 g of carbs per day.
No offense to Kiefer but how would he know? 10g carbs? Is that somehow significant? It has been said that the brain uses an average of 120g glucose a day. Coincidentally thats also roughly what the average liver is said to hold in glycogen.
He collects data and has experience with clients, so I'd say his opinion is rather valuable considering we are talking about this in the context of his diet. I don't think you are necessarily wrong, though I am skeptical, but I don't think you can base a recommendation on it.
I just read this article:http://athlete.io/4752/anabolic-cardio/"To get this right, there’s a bit of supplementation you’ll need to compliment your HIIT cycles. I’ve long been known as a huge advocate of adding leucine to any supplement plan, and in terms of HIIT, I believe it’s especially effective. Here, I’d recommend taking at least five grams before your HIIT workouts. Research in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition showed that taking leucine-enriched amino acids before aerobic exercise can increase post-exertion protein synthesis by up to 33%—further proof of leucine’s efficacy. "So has something changed since this came out? Should I take my leucine preworkout vs after?
I just read this article:http://athlete.io/4752/anabolic-cardio/"To get this right, there’s a bit of supplementation you’ll need to compliment your HIIT cycles. I’ve long been known as a huge advocate of adding leucine to any supplement plan, and in terms of HIIT, I believe it’s especially effective. Here, I’d recommend taking at least five grams before your HIIT workouts. Research in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition showed that taking leucine-enriched amino acids before aerobic exercise can increase post-exertion protein synthesis by up to 33%—further proof of leucine’s efficacy. "So has something changed since this came out? Should I take my leucine preworkout vs after?
Before HIIT, not weight training. I personally don't think it matters much though.
I just read this article:http://athlete.io/4752/anabolic-cardio/"To get this right, there’s a bit of supplementation you’ll need to compliment your HIIT cycles. I’ve long been known as a huge advocate of adding leucine to any supplement plan, and in terms of HIIT, I believe it’s especially effective. Here, I’d recommend taking at least five grams before your HIIT workouts. Research in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition showed that taking leucine-enriched amino acids before aerobic exercise can increase post-exertion protein synthesis by up to 33%—further proof of leucine’s efficacy. "So has something changed since this came out? Should I take my leucine preworkout vs after?
Before HIIT, not weight training. I personally don't think it matters much though.
ok, I'll try it pre-HIIT next time I suppose. Thanks.
I just read this article:http://athlete.io/4752/anabolic-cardio/"To get this right, there’s a bit of supplementation you’ll need to compliment your HIIT cycles. I’ve long been known as a huge advocate of adding leucine to any supplement plan, and in terms of HIIT, I believe it’s especially effective. Here, I’d recommend taking at least five grams before your HIIT workouts. Research in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition showed that taking leucine-enriched amino acids before aerobic exercise can increase post-exertion protein synthesis by up to 33%—further proof of leucine’s efficacy. "So has something changed since this came out? Should I take my leucine preworkout vs after?
Before HIIT, not weight training. I personally don't think it matters much though.
Why not before weights? I have tried with Leucine and without and feel little more energized with, maybe placebo!?!Leucine is taken afterwards so we secrete insulin which is anti-catabolic. Taken before a workout will the insulin secretion be anti-catabolic, but at the same time make us use less fat for energy?HICA is Lecine metabolite that stimulates Mtor. On CNS/ULC Kiefer states that low-carb doesn't stimulate Mtor. Would a HICA supplement before a workout be smart?
I just read this article:http://athlete.io/4752/anabolic-cardio/"To get this right, there’s a bit of supplementation you’ll need to compliment your HIIT cycles. I’ve long been known as a huge advocate of adding leucine to any supplement plan, and in terms of HIIT, I believe it’s especially effective. Here, I’d recommend taking at least five grams before your HIIT workouts. Research in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition showed that taking leucine-enriched amino acids before aerobic exercise can increase post-exertion protein synthesis by up to 33%—further proof of leucine’s efficacy. "So has something changed since this came out? Should I take my leucine preworkout vs after?
Before HIIT, not weight training. I personally don't think it matters much though.
Why not before weights? I have tried with Leucine and without and feel little more energized with, maybe placebo!?!Leucine is taken afterwards so we secrete insulin which is anti-catabolic. Taken before a workout will the insulin secretion be anti-catabolic, but at the same time make us use less fat for energy?HICA is Lecine metabolite that stimulates Mtor. On CNS/ULC Kiefer states that low-carb doesn't stimulate Mtor. Would a HICA supplement before a workout be smart?
Not saying you shouldn't, but Kiefer recommended it before HIIT, not weight training. That what he said in the quote above.
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