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I have been following Lyle McDonalds forums for years and recently came across a few posts debating Kiefers methods. Lyle McDonald says most of the studies Kiefer uses to back up his protocols are full of BS, and "Kiefer is wrong 99% of the time." Ouch!And the consensus on Lyles forums, and a lot of Martin Berkhans followers seems to be that Kiefer ripped of IF and basically dressed it up and called it CarbBackloading by making some minor tweaks.I'm curious to know what others opinions are. Lyle is a pretty smart guy too, and I've seen him give a lot of credit to IF and others, so I don't take him as someone with an ax to grind for no reason.Im neutral in this, and following CNS and see where it takes me. Alot of the discussion seems to center around people taking Kiefers protocols as an excuse to eat like shit, which I think based on what I've read on these forums, a lot the people who are not succeeding with the protocol are basically taking Kiefers protocol and twisting as a means of pouding back 1.5quarts of icecream then they wonder why they fot fatter. I think as with everything it needs to be tailored, but unfortunately there are a lot of people who take things out of context and screw up the protocol to fit their own predetermined agenda. I think any guy or girl with 25%+ bodyfat who ingests 1.5quarts of icecream, apple pie, cake, cereal etc. in one sitting on a back load and then wonders why they are not losing weight is taking the protocol to the extreme.My whole point being I think everything can be right and wrong given the proper context. I never look at anyone as a guru or take their word as gospel. The thing with IF is I did follow it for over two years with great results and muscle gain and this was with me fasting for 16-18 hours most days with zero in my system except half&half in my two cups of coffee in the morning. So I think you can never throw the baby out with the bath water, and everyone should always look at any thing whether, Lyle, Martin or Kiefer with a slightly skeptical eye until they feel they are getting the results that they expect.
I have looked at the abstracts (the full study when available) of a lot of studies that Kiefer cited on certain points that I didn't believe. Kiefer's interpretation was always the one I arrived to after reading what I could.The truth is, this is a business and Lyle McDonald has to compete with Kiefer, especially if their protocols conflict with each other. I can't comment on Lyle McDonald because I know very little about him.Personally, I deeply respect Kiefer's education and background in the hard sciences. That is why I am one of his followers.
Both Kiefer and Lyle have valid points. Kiefer's carb nite is just a CKD, and Lyle wrote the scientific book on ketogenic dieting. In my opinion, I like lyles stuff because he sets it up so you literally just follow the plan and it works. Its tough, but it works. Kiefer's plans allow for more flexibility, but they don't always work out of the box.
I have looked at the abstracts (the full study when available) of a lot of studies that Kiefer cited on certain points that I didn't believe. Kiefer's interpretation was always the one I arrived to after reading what I could.The truth is, this is a business and Lyle McDonald has to compete with Kiefer, especially if their protocols conflict with each other. I can't comment on Lyle McDonald because I know very little about him.Personally, I deeply respect Kiefer's education and background in the hard sciences. That is why I am one of his followers.
Without taking sides, I would say one should always maintain an eye of skepticism, regardless, that way you are always open to new information. I disagree in part with your statement that Lyles comments are business based, because If you read any of Lyles books, which I have, he clearly contradicts many of the protocols Kiefer suggests. So their clearly is a factual disagreement with both men how they interpret the data that they are using to arrive at their conclusions. For example: Lyle McDonalds UD 2.0, pp59, Re: pre-carb load training; "preparing for pre-carb load work out. Consume 25-30grams of carbs with 15grams whey. This accomplishes a few things. First, it starts to shift you out of a ketogenic state, so you can resume anabolism and start the carb-load. The increase in insulin will also lower free fatty acids, helping to increase insulin sensitivity. Second it will make you much stronger in the gym by raising blood glucos from low-normal levels. Third it will provide amino acids for growth."Example 2: pp64 UD 2.0 Re: Caffeine consumpition peri-carbload; "You don't want to use thermogenics today although small amounts of caffeine may help to keep you awake. Thermogenics like ephedirine and clen impair insulin sensitivity which will the limit the effectiveness of your carb-load. High doses of caffeine do as well so try to limit it if at all possible." This is in direct conflict with Keifers assertion that we want to increase insulin IN-sensitivity pre-during, and post training, where Keifer seems to rely more on tglut4 activation as the main metabolic pathway allowing glucose to be transported to muscle cells, irrespective of insulin sensitivity.Also Lyle, who wrote the book on Ketogenic diets, seems to feel Ketosis is completely unimportant in fat loss and is only a tangential consequence of little relevance. I'm not trying to come off as a Lyle sycophant or a Kiefer doubter, I simply enjoy thoughtful discussion of the facts with like minded people. I hate it when Lyle says things like "Kiefer is wrong 99% of the time" without stating why, although I'm sure he has his facts, it would be nice for him share, same goes for Aragon et al. On the converse I think it's important to not give to much reverence to any one person at the risk of becoming blind to new information.
several FB conversations with him. If he doesn't like what you have to say, he'll just tell you to go fuck yourself and that you're a fucking moron or something else with fuck in it. I'm 99.99% positive he uses FB to compensate for too many people calling him out on stupid things he does. He's also given some of the worst training advice I've ever heard, and LOVES to chime in on things to assert his "smartness." For example, there was a post about posing bodybuilders, and for no reason he added in something to the effect of, "you should have supinated your wrist more to show off the peak of your biceps you moron." Completely unnecessary, rude, and the picture of the guy clearly was supinating already. Lyle just wanted to say something to sound smart.
several FB conversations with him. If he doesn't like what you have to say, he'll just tell you to go fuck yourself and that you're a fucking moron or something else with fuck in it. I'm 99.99% positive he uses FB to compensate for too many people calling him out on stupid things he does. He's also given some of the worst training advice I've ever heard, and LOVES to chime in on things to assert his "smartness." For example, there was a post about posing bodybuilders, and for no reason he added in something to the effect of, "you should have supinated your wrist more to show off the peak of your biceps you moron." Completely unnecessary, rude, and the picture of the guy clearly was supinating already. Lyle just wanted to say something to sound smart.
I agree 100% with the fact that he can come across as pretentious and arrogant and can be a dick. That is one of my peeves about him, if you ever try to question anything that he said, even if its just for clarification he gets mad at you, rather than just talk about the facts. So in that regard I agree with you. I would also add though, that it doesn't mean that a lot his work is garbage, because he does have a lot of info, I think what would be great is if everyone could get over their egos, meaning the "gurus" and just come out and debate the science without the drama. For me I guess, not having any exprience with Kiefers work, I will just have to see for my self what my results are and watch that of others.So far following Martin Berkhans Intermittant Fasting has been the most life changing and dramatic for me, I just wish he would come out with a book already giving more details, rather than trying to hodge podge the info together from a blog and forum posts.
Well, I know this isn't very scientific or anything, but if you compare photos of them, looks like Kiefer has the most muscle mass, Martin has the lowest body fat, and Lyle doesn't seem to have much of either (probably because he's caught in a perpetual cycle of bulking up and dieting down). By the way, when I get told I can eat as much as I want on a particular day without putting on fat I take this as a personal challenge. Is it not the case that you can eat unlimited ice cream and apple pie on CN?
Well, I know this isn't very scientific or anything, but if you compare photos of them, looks like Kiefer has the most muscle mass, Martin has the lowest body fat, and Lyle doesn't seem to have much of either (probably because he's caught in a perpetual cycle of bulking up and dieting down). By the way, when I get told I can eat as much as I want on a particular day without putting on fat I take this as a personal challenge. Is it not the case that you can eat unlimited ice cream and apple pie on CN?
If I recall correctly, Lyle was training to compete in the Olympics as a speed skater, so I don't think he was concerned with muscularity or mass, I know Martin is 6' or 6'-1" and stays around 5% BF at 205lbs year round. That is pretty damn impressive in my opinion. I don't know how tall or how much Kiefer weighs, but from the photos he looks pretty damn good.As far as eating as unlimited, well I'll leave that up to each individual to follow at their own risk. For me I think it's a little more balanced that, having followed many different methods. I think the reason a lot people don't make progress on CNS and CBL is they take it as a pure excuse to eat like shit, and gorge, when maybe being 30% bodyfat they should be focused more on glycogen replishinisment, with a touch of induglence, not the other way around.
I agree with Shokat. I'm currently 17% bodyfat, and I keep it clean, low fat, on carb loads. It's better and less messy to deal with. You shouldn't be slamming gallons of ice cream anyway. And Shokat is also right about lyle's speed skating career. He was pretty high level and was able to maintain around 7% bodyfat, which is leaner than most people will ever get in their lifetimes. And he doesn't sugar coat things and Is an ass, but that doesn't change the fact that the dude knows his stuff. He's intelligent and you can't argue that. An ass yes, unintelligent; no.
Question: If we're really eating carbs on CN to replenish glycogen, why are we so busy getting rid of glycogen stores the next day?
Because) Replenishing glycogen will increase performance during exercise. It will also increase energy levels. When you deplete glycogen, you are never actually “Depleted”, just much lower than normal. When you hit these lower levels, its a signal ( THough I will admit that I don't remember the exact mechanism), that increases fat burning. But, deplete too much or stay depleted too long, and you start losing muscle, hence the refeed.But more importantly, you can't really replenish glycogen in 6 hours. There is a rate that limits glycogen synthesis. That short of a refeed is primarily to raise leptin and thyroid hormones, which can plummet after only a few days of reduced calories. That is really the purpose, and to provide adherence to the diet. Much easier to maintain something with the promise of unlimited carbs to look forward too.
So we have to store some glycogen and then semi-deplete it to make the hormones work?
Spiking insulin on carb night causes and elevation in the Fat burning hormones for up to 4 days from carb night. Because dieting itself causes slow done in metabolism,CN rocket boost metabolic rate.
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