Max OT

[Cory McCarthy]

Anyone here used Max OT?  If so, how were your results?      Did you run the full 12 week program?http://www.simplyshredded.com/the-max-ot-workout-a-full-and-in-depth-review.htmlAs I've stated before, I will be switching to CBL by mid-Oct. (latest)... I am currently on CNS.  I am an advanced lifter w/ some good size to show for it.  That said, I don't respond well to HIT, but do quite well with high-volume - for instance, I've had a great success w/ FST-7 in the past.I am looking into advanced programs to run w/ my CBL phase for mass.  I will definitely be doing some FST-7, and some Y3T, but Max OT has me interested.My only concern is the Max OT rep range.  4-6 is GREAT for strength, but not so great for size -- from what I understand.  Not sure how the claims of serious size gains on Max OT could be true, considering 5-6 reps are only on the border of hypertrophy, and 4 reps are pure strength.Just looking to discuss, and hear from anyone who may have used this program before.Cory

[Joseph Conti]

In my opinion Cory, there are multiple ways to increase the volume of a workout. Increase the number of reps per set, or increasing the number of sets.I have never run Max OT, but doing 6-9 sets of 4-6 reps will surely be enough volume to make someone grow. Instead of lowering the weight to increase the number of reps, Max OT works off of keeping your working weight the same and increasing the number of sets.I read this theory in Pavel's Power to the People book..Just my two cents.Keith

[Cory McCarthy]

In my opinion Cory, there are multiple ways to increase the volume of a workout. Increase the number of reps per set, or increasing the number of sets.I have never run Max OT, but doing 6-9 sets of 4-6 reps will surely be enough volume to make someone grow. Instead of lowering the weight to increase the number of reps, Max OT works off of keeping your working weight the same and increasing the number of sets.I read this theory in Pavel's Power to the People book..Just my two cents.Keith

Thanks for chiming in.  I see what you are saying, it is much the way 5x5 works... you may be hitting only 5 reps, but at that number of sets, the required workload for growth is there.That said, most 5x5 routines I've seen contain some higher-rep hypertrophy-specific work for each body group, like Lateral Raises @ 3 x 10-12, for instance.  This, along with Overhead Pressing @ 5 x 5.  Max OT is straight 4-6 reps on all sets, including calves (it appears).Cory

[Marty P Koch]

I trained Max-OT when I first got 'serious' about this stuff and it did me well.  Of course, I was not quite a newb, but close enough to where some of the gains were attributable to newb gains.  I put on 18 lean pounds in a year in my late-20s.  I actually improved my leanness as well due to the Max-OT Cardio component.  Looking back, I don't know how I did it.  Thereafter, I staid on the program another three years – probably longer than I should have but that's another story – continuing to make gains although increasingly more modest until finally petering out…  Over time, however, the 5-day grind week-in and week-out with heavy 4-6RMs may lead to overtraining as there is no room for variation.  The mandatory week layoff after 8-10 weeks of pounding is much-needed when you get there (if you make it - a couple times a year I would break down with a bad cold or something as I was not supplementing enough to ward off the immune-suppressing effects of the overtraining aspect).  I see you plan on rotating programs, so this probably won't be a problem for you.I addressed something I thought was being misinterpreted below, so if I am mistaken, please forgive as no offense intended.

In my opinion Cory, there are multiple ways to increase the volume of a workout. Increase the number of reps per set, or increasing the number of sets.I have never run Max OT, but doing 6-9 sets of 4-6 reps will surely be enough volume to make someone grow. Instead of lowering the weight to increase the number of reps, Max OT works off of keeping your working weight the same and increasing the number of sets. Number of sets should NOT be increased.  You will perform the same number of presecribed sets for each exercise each session for that bodypart.  The range indicates that smaller bodyparts (e.g. Bis, Tris, Calves) will have 6 total sets spread across possibly 2-3 exercises while larger body parts will fall in the higher range with possibly 9 total sets spread accross 3-4 total exercises (e.g. Chest, Back, Legs). The protocol is based TOTALLY on overload without assistance (hence the name) and is LOW volume per the total time it should take to complete a session.  I read this theory in Pavel's Power to the People book..Just my two cents.Keith

I am not in love with the way they programmed the training template in the OP's link and suggest anyone actually go here to get the information from the horse's mouth, so to speak:http://www.ast-ss.com/maxot.php Paul Delia the owner of AST Sports Science actually devised Max-OT and coached Skip LaCour and Jeff Willet to successful NPC careers as natural athletes (I am not going to debate their natural status, just take it FWIW).Here is also Jeff Willet's site (won the Team U in 2003 and IFBB Pro Status) having used this system under Paul Delia's direct tutelage:http://www.jeffwillet.com/newsite/blog-2/He has a few templates laid out in his blog as well, though you will have to hunt for them.

[Marty P Koch]

Thanks for chiming in.  I see what you are saying, it is much the way 5x5 works... you may be hitting only 5 reps, but at that number of sets, the required workload for growth is there.That said, most 5x5 routines I've seen contain some higher-rep hypertrophy-specific work for each body group, like Lateral Raises @ 3 x 10-12, for instance.  This, along with Overhead Pressing @ 5 x 5.  Max OT is straight 4-6 reps on all sets, including calves (it appears). Calves, Forearms, Abs (and I believe Hamstrings to a lesser degree) have slightly higher rep ranges, say 6-8 and/or 8-10 (in the case of abs), if memory serves.Cory

[Joseph Conti]

I trained Max-OT when I first got 'serious' about this stuff and it did me well.  Of course, I was not quite a newb, but close enough to where some of the gains were attributable to newb gains.  I put on 18 lean pounds in a year in my late-20s.  I actually improved my leanness as well due to the Max-OT Cardio component.  Looking back, I don't know how I did it.  Thereafter, I staid on the program another three years - probably longer than I should have but that's another story - continuing to make gains although increasingly more modest until finally petering out...  Over time, however, the 5-day grind week-in and week-out with heavy 4-6RMs may lead to overtraining as there is no room for variation.  The mandatory week layoff after 8-10 weeks of pounding is much-needed when you get there (if you make it - a couple times a year I would break down with a bad cold or something as I was not supplementing enough to ward off the immune-suppressing effects of the overtraining aspect).  I see you plan on rotating programs, so this probably won't be a problem for you.I addressed something I thought was being misinterpreted below, so if I am mistaken, please forgive as no offense intended.

In my opinion Cory, there are multiple ways to increase the volume of a workout. Increase the number of reps per set, or increasing the number of sets.I have never run Max OT, but doing 6-9 sets of 4-6 reps will surely be enough volume to make someone grow. Instead of lowering the weight to increase the number of reps, Max OT works off of keeping your working weight the same and increasing the number of sets. Number of sets should NOT be increased.  You will perform the same number of presecribed sets for each exercise each session for that bodypart.  The range indicates that smaller bodyparts (e.g. Bis, Tris, Calves) will have 6 total sets spread across possibly 2-3 exercises while larger body parts will fall in the higher range with possibly 9 total sets spread accross 3-4 total exercises (e.g. Chest, Back, Legs). The protocol is based TOTALLY on overload without assistance (hence the name) and is LOW volume per the total time it should take to complete a session.  I read this theory in Pavel's Power to the People book..Just my two cents.Keith

I am not in love with the way they programmed the training template in the OP's link and suggest anyone actually go here to get the information from the horse's mouth, so to speak:http://www.ast-ss.com/maxot.php Paul Delia the owner of AST Sports Science actually devised Max-OT and coached Skip LaCour and Jeff Willet to successful NPC careers as natural athletes (I am not going to debate their natural status, just take it FWIW).Here is also Jeff Willet's site (won the Team U in 2003 and IFBB Pro Status) having used this system under Paul Delia's direct tutelage:http://www.jeffwillet.com/newsite/blog-2/He has a few templates laid out in his blog as well, though you will have to hunt for them.

I miscommunicated. I meant that Max OT would have more working sets than a "typical" program. I did not mean that one would increase the number of sets over the duration of Max OT. My initial thoughts were exactly as Cory picked up on, the theory behind 5x5. Again, I did not mean to claim I know Max OT, just wanted to shed some thoughts on volume.Keith

[Marty P Koch]

Again, I allow that I misunderstood your point, so please take no offense as none was intendend.  I would offer, however, that Max-OT has less sets than 'typical' program with maybe about 5-6 exercises and 12-14ish total work sets per workout.  That is, with the caveat being what we consider a 'typical' workout today.  This system came about as an alternative to High Volume programs which had become the norm back in the day.  If we compare it to something as such that we see in Flex, MuscleMag Int'l, M&F, etc., then I think I am correct in that statement as even today, I see the preponderance of 'hardcore' (in their minds) gym-goers using the latest issue of some magazine laid out on the bench as their logbook with as many as 20-25 total sets of 10-12 or even 15 reps in just one day of a six-day routine.  However, if we are comparing it to something created as a 'low volume' protocol, then I think it lies in the meat of the range there, itself becoming typical within that genre.Thanks for clearing up your meaning, and I appreciate the healthy back-and-forth.  It is great to talk shop with serious folks!

[Renny E Padilla]

if you do increase the volume, rep or set wise.  it wouldn't really be max-ot anymore.  that being said I've done 8 weeks of max-ot on SA and my strength increased greatly, my deadlift went from about 255 for 5 to 325 for 5.  that being said since it was on SA i cant be sure show much muscle i gained.  i leaned down, was probably at like 12% BF and ended around maybe below 10%.  and i think i ended maybe around the same weight i started, maybe a little more.  I'm gonna be doing the same thing, but on DB pretty soon.

[MJC]

I did max-ot in college during its heyday…  it definately works and is a good program if you are strapped for time as workouts take under an hour…  I still do the max-ot cardio for my HIIT of choice

[Joseph Conti]

Again, I allow that I misunderstood your point, so please take no offense as none was intendend.  I would offer, however, that Max-OT has less sets than 'typical' program with maybe about 5-6 exercises and 12-14ish total work sets per workout.  That is, with the caveat being what we consider a 'typical' workout today.  This system came about as an alternative to High Volume programs which had become the norm back in the day.  If we compare it to something as such that we see in Flex, MuscleMag Int'l, M&F, etc., then I think I am correct in that statement as even today, I see the preponderance of 'hardcore' (in their minds) gym-goers using the latest issue of some magazine laid out on the bench as their logbook with as many as 20-25 total sets of 10-12 or even 15 reps in just one day of a six-day routine.  However, if we are comparing it to something created as a 'low volume' protocol, then I think it lies in the meat of the range there, itself becoming typical within that genre.Thanks for clearing up your meaning, and I appreciate the healthy back-and-forth.  It is great to talk shop with serious folks!

Haha completely agree marty, and no offense was taken. As a 19 soon to be 20 year old, I am constantly trying to learn and shape my knowledge base.Being able to have a conversation with people who share the same interests is what originally attracted me to forums. And after reading CBL/CNS, they have become my interests, so naturally I'm going to be a frequent visitor to the best forums on the web!Long live DH Nation!

[Marty P Koch]

Haha completely agree marty, and no offense was taken. As a 19 soon to be 20 year old, I am constantly trying to learn and shape my knowledge base.Being able to have a conversation with people who share the same interests is what originally attracted me to forums. And after reading CBL/CNS, they have become my interests, so naturally I'm going to be a frequent visitor to the best forums on the web!Long live DH Nation!

Sounds like you have a great head on your shoulders at such a young age.  Keep it up and remember this iron game is a marathon, not a sprint, so plan for longevity putting health first and you will go far.Now, as far as your screen name; I hope it is not a reference to the man who took the Oilers out of Houston...  🙁

[Cory McCarthy]

Thank you all for the replies.  🙂I am by no means a 'newb' to lifting, so that was also a concern -- getting results at an advanced level of experience.  I've never trained Max OT before, and typically, I work in the 8-10 rep range... so this is certainly a heavier-than-usual workload for me.I guess the big thing is, if I devote 8 weeks to something, I'd hate to get nothing out of it b/c it turns out to be bogus / fad.I definitely plan on cycling routines, b/c I get "routine ADD" easily.  Usually switching things up every 4 weeks, or so to keep things fresh.Looks like I will give Max OT a shot.  I also plan to do some periodization work, FST-7 (a favorite protocol of mine), and Neil Hill's Y3T (which is similar to P/RR/S), once I switch to CBL.Cory

[Marty P Koch]

Whatever Max-OT may be, a fad it is not.  It has produced a couple of champion bodybuilders, as I previously mentioned, so the potential is there, just depends on how well our individual physiology is suited to it.Before happening upon the Gospel according to Kiefer, I experienced an 'epic fail' with a high-volume routine, having never ventured into that realm before, I thought I would give it a try, going for that magical 'sarcoplasmic expansion'.  No go.  I ad always gravitated toward and adhered to relatively heavier, lower volume stuff as it just plain made more sense to me, and as it turns out, fit me better.I am your polar opposite as I tend to stick dogmatically to something past its period of effectiveness thinking there is something wrong with my execution of the plan.  After all the information I've come across recently, I think 6 weeks is the sweet spot to either change parameters within a protocol, deload and then reload the protocol, or possibly move to a new protocol if things are just not working.  Again, its a fine line between bailing on something too soon and hanging in too long.  On either end of the spectrum, the result is the same: you've wasted time you can't get back.

[Joseph Conti]

Sounds like you have a great head on your shoulders at such a young age.  Keep it up and remember this iron game is a marathon, not a sprint, so plan for longevity putting health first and you will go far.Now, as far as your screen name; I hope it is not a reference to the man who took the Oilers out of Houston...  🙁

Haha thanks marty. I have begun to understand that the iron game is a marathon, but it is so hard to keep that thought in today's world. Everyone wants to already be at the destination instead of enjoying the adventure.And yes, it is a reference to the Tennessee Titans. When I was a kid, I was a huge Titans fan and have used this screen name ever since. I am now a NY Jets fan because I love Rex Ryan; however, the Titans have a great upcoming quarterback in Jake Locker IMO.

[Cory McCarthy]

Whatever Max-OT may be, a fad it is not.  It has produced a couple of champion bodybuilders, as I previously mentioned, so the potential is there, just depends on how well our individual physiology is suited to it.Before happening upon the Gospel according to Kiefer, I experienced an 'epic fail' with a high-volume routine, having never ventured into that realm before, I thought I would give it a try, going for that magical 'sarcoplasmic expansion'.  No go.  I ad always gravitated toward and adhered to relatively heavier, lower volume stuff as it just plain made more sense to me, and as it turns out, fit me better.I am your polar opposite as I tend to stick dogmatically to something past its period of effectiveness thinking there is something wrong with my execution of the plan.  After all the information I've come across recently, I think 6 weeks is the sweet spot to either change parameters within a protocol, deload and then reload the protocol, or possibly move to a new protocol if things are just not working.  Again, its a fine line between bailing on something too soon and hanging in too long.  On either end of the spectrum, the result is the same: you've wasted time you can't get back.

Thanks for your feedback on this.  Definitely going to give Max OT a shot.  See where I am in 8-10 weeks, just prior to the recommended week "break".  If I like how it is going, I will continue it for a bit longer after the rest... if not, I will switch gears.Yes, I agree... 6-8 weeks is usually a good point to change things up, but I often change-up around 4 weeks (if the program isn't ever-changing like Y3T, P/RR/S or periodization schemes).I hear you on wasting time.  When I go to the gym, it is all-business, so I hate the idea of wasted sweat and time.Cory

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