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Guess this would be a good question to ask Kiefer himself.
Totally agree!! I did not mean to start any heated discussion. I just wanted to see if I had missed anything about whether to use the gum on non-training days or not. I think for now, I am going to use the morning dose every day and a second dose only if I am training until Kiefer clarifies. I'm just glad it is not in there "clear as day" with just me missing it!
Definitely not making any type of heat. It is a good question, confusing at one. I would assume to take it according which protocol you're using. I have a couple opinion/theories but without the proper information and research its not valid.
Definitely not making any type of heat. It is a good question, confusing at one. I would assume to take it according which protocol you're using. I have a couple opinion/theories but without the proper information and research its not valid.
OK I've spent a lot of time going back through the book. Due to editing I can't just say exactly what I've read, but I can direct you to the pages. To start I would like to point out that there was no mention in the book of any insulin resistance issue. This is something that has been researched somewhere else, and is almost certainly valid on a normal diet where you would regularly eat carbs as a smoker etc. We are not on a normal diet, and the amount of nicotine that we are consuming are low.P.27 Talks about the TOR pathway, and how it counteracts the problem that can occur when glucose and leucine etc is present in the blood stream.P.42 Talks about how long it takes for peak levels of nicotine to be achieved, and how long that remains. This is why we take the doses at the time prescribed.The most logical way to see that it is okay to take nicotine everyday is to look at the IF protocol. Without going into too much detail, the doses are the same EVERY DAY and they are more frequent. There is no training or non training advise you just take it every day at the times and amount prescribed. If this is safe for IF then it is obviously ok for the other protocols.Finally it takes the body two to three days for nicotine to leave the body with or without resistance training. So if nicotine in the bloodstream caused nicotine resistance using the times and dosing amounts given this protocol wouldn't work at all.As long as we are taking the correct doses at the right times there will be no insulin resistance. That's why we have been given strict instructions here. Re-read the book, and look again at all the benefits of nicotine especially the TOR pathway. Don't forget to read the IF protocol. Relax guys a little bit of gum isn't going to cause Diabetes. Just space out your nicotine and carbs as described. Once the nicotine levels have dropped off a bit we are ok.
That's a fair point about the IF protocol. The insulin resistance is the focus of one of the references – I forget which now but one that he points to when talking about carb intake. That reference then itself references the work that I posted the abstract for; unfortunately healthy individuals are affected by insulin resistance when chewing nicotine gum, according to that study. How they define “healthy” is not known however, and this insulin resistance does not occur when taking nicotine via infusion or patch, strangely enough (don't know about lozenges as they only tested gum). Anyway, we also don't know how much of a difference it makes if tGLUT is suppressed nor how long it is impaired for. There are for sure a lot of unknowns but that's to be expected. Personally I prefer to err on the safe side and only have nicotine in the morning on training days if backloading and not at all on off-day backloading but that's my personal choice, until there's more research at least.
That's a fair point about the IF protocol. The insulin resistance is the focus of one of the references - I forget which now but one that he points to when talking about carb intake. That reference then itself references the work that I posted the abstract for; unfortunately healthy individuals are affected by insulin resistance when chewing nicotine gum, according to that study. How they define "healthy" is not known however, and this insulin resistance does not occur when taking nicotine via infusion or patch, strangely enough (don't know about lozenges as they only tested gum). Anyway, we also don't know how much of a difference it makes if tGLUT is suppressed nor how long it is impaired for. There are for sure a lot of unknowns but that's to be expected. Personally I prefer to err on the safe side and only have nicotine in the morning on training days if backloading and not at all on off-day backloading but that's my personal choice, until there's more research at least.
Taking the doses in the morning would be the best option if your worried about insulin resistance. Here's a though though... training causes insulin levels to rise. Based on what you've researched I'm assuming that nicotine would stop that from happening like when insulin levels rise from the presence of glucose in your blood as a result of eating carbs. Again this would mean that the whole protocol wouldn't work. I guess we have to trust Kiefer with the dosing and times. He's an expert in the frield of sports nutrition. We should be in safe hands. If you are unsure then obviously you don't have to do it. Good luck with your results.
That's a fair point about the IF protocol. The insulin resistance is the focus of one of the references - I forget which now but one that he points to when talking about carb intake. That reference then itself references the work that I posted the abstract for; unfortunately healthy individuals are affected by insulin resistance when chewing nicotine gum, according to that study. How they define "healthy" is not known however, and this insulin resistance does not occur when taking nicotine via infusion or patch, strangely enough (don't know about lozenges as they only tested gum). Anyway, we also don't know how much of a difference it makes if tGLUT is suppressed nor how long it is impaired for. There are for sure a lot of unknowns but that's to be expected. Personally I prefer to err on the safe side and only have nicotine in the morning on training days if backloading and not at all on off-day backloading but that's my personal choice, until there's more research at least.
Taking the doses in the morning would be the best option if your worried about insulin resistance. Here's a though though... training causes insulin levels to rise. Based on what you've researched I'm assuming that nicotine would stop that from happening like when insulin levels rise from the presence of glucose in your blood as a result of eating carbs. Again this would mean that the whole protocol wouldn't work. I guess we have to trust Kiefer with the dosing and times. He's an expert in the frield of sports nutrition. We should be in safe hands. If you are unsure then obviously you don't have to do it. Good luck with your results.
I also want to add that Kiefer does say that the simple solution to any problems is properly dosed nicotine. I keep repeating this, but it is important to remember we are dealing with very low doses here. Page 34 tells us that a smokers dosage per day is 60mg. Now look at our dosage per day. You can see why this isn't going to stay in our blood for long. Page 35 also says that small doses have shown no evidence of negative results.
So the issue here is how close y'all are taking the second dose to training. How close are y'all taking it?
Hang on a sec, training doesn't cause insulin levels to rise. Also as stated the insulin resistance is caused by suppression of tGLUT, which as we all know resistance training turns on again without needing insulin so we don't have to worry as long as we lift heavy. That's the real crux of it. Finally the study was undertaken with just 1 ng/ml of nicotine to 200 ng/ml of palmitate (and as the report states, 4mg nicotine makes levels rise to 7-8 ng/ml).Anyway we're never going to come to a full conclusion on this either way as there just haven't been enough studies done; that's why it's bleeding-edge stuff, after all 😉 I just prefer to err on the side of caution slightly whilst still reaping the benefits of nicotine supplementation.
Hang on a sec, training doesn't cause insulin levels to rise. Also as stated the insulin resistance is caused by suppression of tGLUT, which as we all know resistance training turns on again without needing insulin so we don't have to worry as long as we lift heavy. That's the real crux of it. Finally the study was undertaken with just 1 ng/ml of nicotine to 200 ng/ml of palmitate (and as the report states, 4mg nicotine makes levels rise to 7-8 ng/ml).Anyway we're never going to come to a full conclusion on this either way as there just haven't been enough studies done; that's why it's bleeding-edge stuff, after all 😉 I just prefer to err on the side of caution slightly whilst still reaping the benefits of nicotine supplementation.
Yep you're right I got that totally wrong. Resistance training causes the GLUT to move around without insulin so I see why you would only be using nicotine on training day if you are worried about the GLUT not being able to do its job if there was insulin resistance. However I can't see insulin resistance happening. I've been taking my nicotine every day for over a week with no problems. I'm still leaning out and getting stronger and I've increased carbs from 200g to 300g this week to test it out. I put on fat really quickly by the way so I would definitely have seen fat gains after three backloads of dirty carbs mostly.
So the issue here is how close y'all are taking the second dose to training. How close are y'all taking it?
I take mine at 4pm. I train at about 6. I don't eat my first carb meal until about 7:30, and that is PWO shake. My main carb meal if training is about 8-8:30.
Take it a bit earlier. I have been taking mine roughly around 1-1:30 and training is around 4:15. I am probably wrong but with what the report states, I am giving myself that window.
Another interesting point would be to discuss the inherent insulin sensitivity that comes for those on these sorts of protocols. Especially for CN and SA, you have a 10-day low carb period which resets insulin sensitivity. But In general just being low-carb for a period of time has benefits for insulin sensitivity. It makes me wonder, since these studies would be working with people who would have most likely followed a traditional mixed diet. If that were the case, they very may well have already had decreased insulin sensitivity due to their lifestyle. In such a situation it may be a problem to have further repression of tGLUT and such. However, I wonder if eating the way we do (that is, in such a way that promotes insulin sensitive bodies through both periods of low-carb diet and heavy exercise) would place us in a different situation regarding the transient insulin insensitivity which nicotine promotes. Just a thought. I also am one to err on the side of caution in these matters; however, I have two thoughts regarding off-day usage of nicotine supplementation with subsequent backloading. The first has already been stated above and pertains to the protocols given to those who undertake the IF protocol. In such a case, nicotine is prescribed every day, training or not. The second thought is in regards to the morning training protocol with SA. If you will note on page 44, the morning training protocol is to have 2mg before training and 2mg after training. This is indeed very interesting and brings up a few thoughts. First of all, the the initial nicotine supplementation will cause tGLUT suppression, which will in turn be counteracted by the training itself. Okay, cool. But what about the additional nicotine taken immediately afterward? This would also work to suppress tGLUT, and possibly counteract the increased expression of tGLUT4 caused by resistance training, especially considering the transient nature of the increased tGLUT expression post-workout. So, wouldn't this sort-of create an off-day scenario by merit of the protocol itself? My guess is it would. That being said, it is still considered safe to backload under these circumstances. As Tigerite said, we don't know for how long nicotine suppresses tGLUT and to what degree. However, my guess is that with our low dosages and already higher-than normal insulin sensitivity, it is probably negligible. That is just my two cents.
Another interesting point would be to discuss the inherent insulin sensitivity that comes for those on these sorts of protocols. Especially for CN and SA, you have a 10-day low carb period which resets insulin sensitivity. But In general just being low-carb for a period of time has benefits for insulin sensitivity. It makes me wonder, since these studies would be working with people who would have most likely followed a traditional mixed diet. If that were the case, they very may well have already had decreased insulin sensitivity due to their lifestyle. In such a situation it may be a problem to have further repression of tGLUT and such. However, I wonder if eating the way we do (that is, in such a way that promotes insulin sensitive bodies through both periods of low-carb diet and heavy exercise) would place us in a different situation regarding the transient insulin insensitivity which nicotine promotes. Just a thought. I also am one to err on the side of caution in these matters; however, I have two thoughts regarding off-day usage of nicotine supplementation with subsequent backloading. The first has already been stated above and pertains to the protocols given to those who undertake the IF protocol. In such a case, nicotine is prescribed every day, training or not. The second thought is in regards to the morning training protocol with SA. If you will note on page 44, the morning training protocol is to have 2mg before training and 2mg after training. This is indeed very interesting and brings up a few thoughts. First of all, the the initial nicotine supplementation will cause tGLUT suppression, which will in turn be counteracted by the training itself. Okay, cool. But what about the additional nicotine taken immediately afterward? This would also work to suppress tGLUT, and possibly counteract the increased expression of tGLUT4 caused by resistance training, especially considering the transient nature of the increased tGLUT expression post-workout. So, wouldn't this sort-of create an off-day scenario by merit of the protocol itself? My guess is it would. That being said, it is still considered safe to backload under these circumstances. As Tigerite said, we don't know for how long nicotine suppresses tGLUT and to what degree. However, my guess is that with our low dosages and already higher-than normal insulin sensitivity, it is probably negligible. That is just my two cents.
Thanks that's exactly what I was saying on earlier post about us not being on a normal diet. The inclusion of nicotine works because of the times we eat our carbs. Again remember we are also not taking a normal amount of nicotine. Some people are getting paranoid about this insulin resistance thing which I don't see mentioned anywhere in the book. If it is give me the page please. The only negative I've seen is the adrenaline diabetes situation, but that is avoided by the spacing out of carbs and nicotine. Again our diet prevents that. Guys are you all taking the gum as recommended? If so what have you seen so far? Better results the same or worse? It's too early to say exactly what I think of this protocol ,but I haven't seen any negatives. If it aint broke don't fix it that's what I say 😉
The second thought is in regards to the morning training protocol with SA. If you will note on page 44, the morning training protocol is to have 2mg before training and 2mg after training. This is indeed very interesting and brings up a few thoughts. First of all, the the initial nicotine supplementation will cause tGLUT suppression, which will in turn be counteracted by the training itself. Okay, cool. But what about the additional nicotine taken immediately afterward? This would also work to suppress tGLUT, and possibly counteract the increased expression of tGLUT4 caused by resistance training, especially considering the transient nature of the increased tGLUT expression post-workout. So, wouldn't this sort-of create an off-day scenario by merit of the protocol itself? My guess is it would. That being said, it is still considered safe to backload under these circumstances. As Tigerite said, we don't know for how long nicotine suppresses tGLUT and to what degree. However, my guess is that with our low dosages and already higher-than normal insulin sensitivity, it is probably negligible. That is just my two cents.
Regardless of nicotine dosing though, by the time a backload begins after a morning training session, aren't the benefits of tGLUT lost? If so, the tGLUT suppressing functionality of nicotine is a moot point in this case, as working out in the morning renders tGLUTs benefits non-existent anyway.This further supports the idea that off-day nicotine supplementation is okay.
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