Noon Training CBL

[Joannes Bartholomew]

I've partially read CBL and I'm trying to see the optimum way it can fit into my current routine.What I'm Doing:Nutrition: IF (2030hrs to 1230hrs) - IIFYMTraining hours: 1200hrs to 1300hrs daily (HST & Cardio alternate days)My question is: Based on CBL, after my training at 1300hrs up to 2030hrs (Before my IF starts), would this be a good time to ingest my max carbs allocation (Based on C45%, P35%, F20%) or would it be better to increase carbs % in the mix? This would mean, readjusting my protein and fats percentage intake. I'm also quite confused with "going to town" with the carbs. There must be a daily limit on the allowable intake amount right? Right now, I am just maxing out based on my IIFYM %. Just wondering if I can tweak it around.Thanks for the replies in advance!PS: Sorry if a similar question has been posted. If it has, appreciate if you can redirect me to the thread. Thanks.

[TCB]

A couple of things..1) I'd shorten your fasting window. 16 hours is too long. Keep it to 10-12 and I think you'll find better results.2) Some people will probably tell you IIFYM is stupid. I personally think IIFYM and CBL can fit together nicely, just keep the carbs portion of your IIFYM calcs to the evening/post workout. And if you're trying to lose fat with CBL you probably want to be ULC on training-off-days3) There is a daily limit on carb intake, but it's highly individual. You'll have to experiment with what works for your body. Another reason I like an IIFYM overlay to CBL; it gives a starting point for tweaking from.4) Check out BJJ's review of the recent webinar at the link below. I've also quoted the pertinent area below, with my alterations for you, in red.

Noonish Scenario    Stay ultra-low carb until noon    Train noonish    Wait one hour    Take Carb Shock    Have only coconut oil, MCT, or coffee one hour after taking Carb Shock    Take post workout protein shake, without carbs    Stay ultra-low carb until dinner    Back-load carbs after 6 pm

EDIT- I made the changes in the quote, based on the assumption you don't have CarbShock. If you do, then no changes to what I quoted are needed.

[Joannes Bartholomew]

Appreciate the input TCB!1.) I'm on IF at the moment, and I figure I'd use the time to drain the liver glycogen prior to my workout as well. 2. & 3.) You're right about using IIFYM as a starting point, and getting a smarter guesstimate to the daily macros. Proteins and fats aren't a problem to be honest. I hit them all the time. Carbs target for the day is harder to hit. I'll stick to my carb % based on IIFYM and hit it later in the day.4.) Any links I can check out to the rest of the review?My assumption was that the point of CBL was to load carbs only after the workout and not necessarily only at night (our bodies can't tell the time). From your recommendation, it's best only to load after 1800hrs? Was thinking of maximizing the anabolic function of carbs post workout (1-2 hours post). Would that be detrimental instead?Thanks!

[TCB]

Appreciate the input TCB!1.) I'm on IF at the moment, and I figure I'd use the time to drain the liver glycogen prior to my workout as well. 2. & 3.) You're right about using IIFYM as a starting point, and getting a smarter guesstimate to the daily macros. Proteins and fats aren't a problem to be honest. I hit them all the time. Carbs target for the day is harder to hit. I'll stick to my carb % based on IIFYM and hit it later in the day.4.) Any links I can check out to the rest of the review?My assumption was that the point of CBL was to load carbs only after the workout and not necessarily only at night (our bodies can't tell the time). From your recommendation, it's best only to load after 1800hrs? Was thinking of maximizing the anabolic function of carbs post workout (1-2 hours post). Would that be detrimental instead?Thanks!

The link is right above the quote I made, just copy paste it. Or, BJJ has made several threads here in the forums about his summaries.And the baseline, simplest recommendation for both of Kiefer's diets, as he's said several times is just eat carbs at night. If you do nothing else right, eating carbs only at night is the minimum.Oh, and regardless of your IF intentions, I still think 16hrs is too long.

[Joannes Bartholomew]

Was going through the webinar notes and noticed this (correct me if I'm wrong):Carb Shock being introduced to deliver insulin effects, without the carbs.Then there's T3 Fuel:"After a coming from a carb based diet, mitochondria become sick, and when that happens they can give an upward signal cascade that tells the body to downregulate thyroid hormone, because if the thyroid hormones are kept too high, then the mitochondria are being asked to produce higher and higher levels of ATP, or to oxidize more and more nutrients. When this happens and they’re already sick, it can make them more and more sick."To my understanding, based on the notes and CBL, it's like on one hand, we're encouraged to consume loads of carbs and get the insulin advantages, but in the meantime, due to its 'detrimental' effects, there's another supplement to counter the overconsumption, as it causes cellular (mitochondrial) damage.Now, what gives? Given that I do not have access to either Carb Shock or T3Fuel (they don't ship out of US)?Is there a natural alternative that I can do on my own?

[Trevor G Fullbright]

Talking about a carb based diet, that's mainly talking about a SAD (Standard american diet) in which you are eating carbs all day every day and having insulin levels and blood glucose levels always raised.

[Joannes Bartholomew]

Another point to note:Page 76: Emphasis on eating high GI carbs at night. Is this based on the assumption that the subject trains in the evenings (1700-1800hrs)? As mentioned, I would think that if training was done at 1200hrs, then the high GI window should be 1-2 hours post workout? As this point comes up again, the body does not know the time. It just knows when it's post workout, and when its time to sleep. Because if this is the case, the training hours becomes a variable and the protocol would have to be based on "timing" as the arbitrary variable, as opposed to having rigid specific "refuelling" periods.I'm just speaking from a standpoint of someone trying to adapt CBL into their different lifestyles.Also, TCB, I think my scenario fits this better:Noonish Scenario

• Stay ultra-low carb until noonTrain noonishWait one hour

Take Carb Shock (At this point, can I change this with a high GI carb source instead?)Have only coconut oil, MCT, or coffee one hour after taking Carb ShockStay ultra-low carb until dinnerBack-load carbs after 6 pm

[Trevor G Fullbright]

The timing is actually less about when you train and more about following the Bodies circadian rhythms.Your body does know what time it is. Post training the goal is simply to stop the catabolic processes from training, hence you don't need Carb, though adding a little into a Whey+leucine shake does create a very large insulin spike. Refueling will happen over a longer period of time after, so be shifting carbs to night you maximize metabolic flexibility.

[TCB]

I'm with Trevor. In a way, the body actually does know what time it is. As the day progresses, and exposure to light sources, activity level, etc change, hormonal levels in the body also shift.Hormones, and the way the body uses them, are more optimal in the evening to handle CHO.You should also note that when it says "Backload after 6pm" that the 6pm isn't a hard and fast time. It is totally used as a guideline to just mean at night, or in the evening. If you go through the studies referenced in CBL, there are a couple that Kiefer included that show why having carbs at night is beneficial.So, again, long story short..In order to follow the CBL guidelines:-ULC til noon-Train @ noon-Wait one hour-Shake with protein powder (iso/hydro blend would be good) + 5g leucine + 5-10g creatine. This will slow catabolisis. -ULC until dinner-At dinner and beyond, consume your carbs. This is when you replenish glycogen.

[Joannes Bartholomew]

Thanks so much guys! So I'm starting off, and I'm on my 10-day zero carbs stage now, to empty out the glycogen stores. Makes sense as it'll be my baseline to kick off.I feel tired easily after training, but after enough rest, I can still kick ass.So to start, it would go like this:- 7-10 days of emptying glycogen stores with minimal usable daily carbs at 10%. (Proteins 60% and Fats 30%) - Up to a point where I've fully exhausted the stores, I'll start backloading on pre-training days only (Strength Accumulation). At this point, I'll reset back to my ratio of C40%, P40% & F20%.- I do HIIT cardio on non-training days, cycling them every other day.Would this be workable, guys?

[Trevor G Fullbright]

Thanks so much guys! So I'm starting off, and I'm on my 10-day zero carbs stage now, to empty out the glycogen stores. Makes sense as it'll be my baseline to kick off.I feel tired easily after training, but after enough rest, I can still kick ass.So to start, it would go like this:- 7-10 days of emptying glycogen stores with minimal usable daily carbs at 10%. (Proteins 60% and Fats 30%) - Up to a point where I've fully exhausted the stores, I'll start backloading on pre-training days only (Strength Accumulation). At this point, I'll reset back to my ratio of C40%, P40% & F20%.- I do HIIT cardio on non-training days, cycling them every other day.Would this be workable, guys?

During the 10 days you want 1g per lbs of protein, and the rest fats, getting at least 50% of calories from fat.

[TCB]

Thanks so much guys! So I'm starting off, and I'm on my 10-day zero carbs stage now, to empty out the glycogen stores. Makes sense as it'll be my baseline to kick off.I feel tired easily after training, but after enough rest, I can still kick ass.So to start, it would go like this:- 7-10 days of emptying glycogen stores with minimal usable daily carbs at 10%. (Proteins 60% and Fats 30%) - Up to a point where I've fully exhausted the stores, I'll start backloading on pre-training days only (Strength Accumulation). At this point, I'll reset back to my ratio of C40%, P40% & F20%.- I do HIIT cardio on non-training days, cycling them every other day.Would this be workable, guys?

I'd personally backload the evening after a workout, instead of night before (just my preference). With the noon scenario, though, a case could be made for both. Try a couple weeks doing each and see which you like better.

[Trevor G Fullbright]

Thanks so much guys! So I'm starting off, and I'm on my 10-day zero carbs stage now, to empty out the glycogen stores. Makes sense as it'll be my baseline to kick off.I feel tired easily after training, but after enough rest, I can still kick ass.So to start, it would go like this:- 7-10 days of emptying glycogen stores with minimal usable daily carbs at 10%. (Proteins 60% and Fats 30%) - Up to a point where I've fully exhausted the stores, I'll start backloading on pre-training days only (Strength Accumulation). At this point, I'll reset back to my ratio of C40%, P40% & F20%.- I do HIIT cardio on non-training days, cycling them every other day.Would this be workable, guys?

I'd personally backload the evening after a workout, instead of night before (just my preference). With the noon scenario, though, a case could be made for both. Try a couple weeks doing each and see which you like better.

Honestly I think backloading the night of training regardless of time of training and next day training schedule is the easiest way to go about it.

[TCB]

Thanks so much guys! So I'm starting off, and I'm on my 10-day zero carbs stage now, to empty out the glycogen stores. Makes sense as it'll be my baseline to kick off.I feel tired easily after training, but after enough rest, I can still kick ass.So to start, it would go like this:- 7-10 days of emptying glycogen stores with minimal usable daily carbs at 10%. (Proteins 60% and Fats 30%) - Up to a point where I've fully exhausted the stores, I'll start backloading on pre-training days only (Strength Accumulation). At this point, I'll reset back to my ratio of C40%, P40% & F20%.- I do HIIT cardio on non-training days, cycling them every other day.Would this be workable, guys?

I'd personally backload the evening after a workout, instead of night before (just my preference). With the noon scenario, though, a case could be made for both. Try a couple weeks doing each and see which you like better.

Honestly I think backloading the night of training regardless of time of training and next day training schedule is the easiest way to go about it.

Agreed. For me it's just mental though, feeling like I "earned" the backload.

[Joannes Bartholomew]

That's what I thought.. But then that would be the classic carb-loading, no?I do fasted resistance training every other day, cycled with cardio.. and in his book, he specifically mentioned that the backloading be done the day before the resistance training.

To get the largest insulin spike possible from our early-A.M. training, consume the highest glycemic carbs possible the night before the training session—the higher the insulin spike from the carbs the night before, the higher the insulin response the next morning3. Everything we eat causes a reaction, sometimes extending over several hours. This changes how we define an off-day. We no longer define a day off as a day without training. An off-day is a day when you don’t train the next morning. Remember, carb ingestion is to replenish glycogen for the next-day’s training session. Therefore, eat carbs on each night preceding a fasted-A.M. training session.

But like you mentioned, I suppose the best is to try it and play by "feel".

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