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Is it ok to do HIIT on Lifting days, about 3 times per week, during the fasting part of the day? I do not take post training nutrition after HIIT. I wait until I have my ULC meal (1st meal) a couple hours later. My HIIT consists of 20-30 second sprints with 10-15 seconds of rest done 12-16 times.Thanks for the help
In the Flex article, Kiefer is advocating HIIT on lifting days one hour before lifting, which is what precipitated this string.
If you want to keep muscle breakdown to a minimum, post HIIT eat something or take a whey/leucine shake like Kiefer says here: http://dangerouslyhardcore.com/forum/index.php?topic=3382.msg36664#msg36664
This is the other post that precipitated this string. I bounce back and forth between CNS and CBL so I think I qualify as ULC. Is Kiefer saying post HIIT consume whey and leucine? If so, aren't we spiking our insulin in the ULC part of the day? I trust Kiefer and if he says to do that, I am going to try it. But spiking insulin in the ULC part of the day, does seem counter to past instruction. Thus, in an attempt to not screw this up, how much whey and leucine should we be taking post HIIT?
And I guess the other lingering question, is do we do HIIT an hour before lifting as instructed in the Flex article or fasted as you all and I have been doing?
And I guess the other lingering question, is do we do HIIT an hour before lifting as instructed in the Flex article or fasted as you all and I have been doing?
+1
I've been thinking about this as well and trying to clarify my thought process on it.The reason morning is best time for fat burning if we keep insulin low is because morning is when cortisol is highest and cortisol is catabolic (i.e breaks down fat and muscle). Insulin reduces the effect of morning cortisol so we keep insulin low to keep cortisol's catabolic effects high.Now the catabolic effect breaks down fat and muscle, so the key to morning training is to find a method that causes more fat break down than muscle break down. This i where I hope some of the experts on this site will get involved as the type of training you do, and the intensity of the training will directly effect whether your body uses fat or breaks down muscle to fuel the high intensity. I would think that low intensity would burn least muscle and high intensity most muscle. I guess that is why keifer recommends an insulin spike after HIIT as this will halt the muscle burning process after hiit, however also halt the fat burning. Therefore the best option must be to do excercise in the am, that promotes greatest fat loss and least muscle loss and then take NO supplements to boost insulin and keep burning fat for the remainder of the day (or until you spike insulin or cortisol goes too low).In order to use the am period when cortisol is highest (i.e the monent you wake up till about a 2 hours later) you need to find the best way to excercise that burns mainly fat (i would imagine steady cardio) and least muscle (i would guess HIIT burns more muscle). If you do an am excercise of the high muscle burning variety then you need to spike insulin if you want to halt the muscle (and fat loss) after you finish, if you want to let the muscle and fat loss continue for the hours after your am training then don't spike insulin. If you only do moderate excersice which favours fat loss then not having a post training insulin spike will keep you burning fat for longer.I am hoping someone will clarify (i plan to research it over next few weeks myself anyway) in what circumstances body prefers muscle to fat burning. I'm sure it is to do with glycogen levels, i.e when these tank you start burning muscle, but my guess is these tank pretty quickly when doing HIIT, and if you havn't refulled glycogen (i.e not a carb night or not a carb back loading night) the night before you do HIIT then you could be doing HIIT and burning most of your hard earned muscle away. Also I want to understand how glycogen levels deplete over night, so I know that carb back loading is a way to replenish glycogen after training, but these must naturally decrease even when your not doing resistance training.Back to your original question, my idea is take an am post workout supplement to boost insulin only if you want to stop catabolism of fat and muscle. Be wary however, and question why you are doing am training in the first place that requires you to halt catabolism after completing it, as this would mean that you are training in a way that is burning a higher ratio of muscle to fat and that is not what we want. If you did am training with a higher fat to muscle burning ratio then you would not want to stop the catabolic effect.
I was under the impression that Kiefer hates steady state because it's catabolic.
I was under the impression that Kiefer hates steady state because it's catabolic.
+1HIIT all the way.Cory
@fairy – being catabolic applies to muscle and fat. You need to be catabolic to break down fat. I'm currently working through the book again, but i'm pretty sure he doesn't advocate HIIT in the am but does advocate increasing energy expenditure via a fasted walk. @cory - care to expand on your thinking behind this? The more scientific and factual the better.The point remains, if you have to take a supplement to boost insulin after your am workout then your doing something wrong. We are manipulating when we eat food to work with our bodies natural hormonal state i.e ensuring lower insulin levels in the morning to promote continued fat loss. If you then give yourself a morning insulin spike, (or carry out an activity that requires you to give yourself a morning insulin spike) you are defeating the purpose of what you were trying to achieve.
@fairy - being catabolic applies to muscle and fat. You need to be catabolic to break down fat. I'm currently working through the book again, but i'm pretty sure he doesn't advocate HIIT in the am but does advocate increasing energy expenditure via a fasted walk. @cory - care to expand on your thinking behind this? The more scientific and factual the better.The point remains, if you have to take a supplement to boost insulin after your am workout then your doing something wrong. We are manipulating when we eat food to work with our bodies natural hormonal state i.e ensuring lower insulin levels in the morning to promote continued fat loss. If you then give yourself a morning insulin spike, (or carry out an activity that requires you to give yourself a morning insulin spike) you are defeating the purpose of what you were trying to achieve.
There are countless articles out there selling HIIT cardio as the way. It has gained momentum over the years, but my statement is more a reflection of Keifer's suggestion for his diet protocol... stick to HIIT. He is not a proponent of steady state.As for Catabolism, early in the day cortisol attacks fat, later in the day (evening+) it attacks muscle. Again, all per Keifer's research, and the basis of his diets.Cory
I appreciate your input mate but your way off with the cortisol issue, it doesn't choose to burn fat in the morning and muscle at night. The whole point of the morning fast is because cortisol levels are naturally high first thing then drop off considerable after a couple of hours, then gradually lower for the rest of the day until around 2am when they start to build up again for the next morning. Cortisol is less important at night because there is considerably less of it and the levels are negligible in terms of being catabolic. As soon as you have an insulin spiking shale in the morning, cortisol is no longer fighting the fat, that is the whole point.I'm not sure if keifer does recommend HIIT in the morning in his book? It appears from a post above that he says HIIT should be done an hour before weight training, which makes way more sense. I understand how HIIT works but i guess my point is that it shouldn't be done in the morning to the extent that you need an insulin spiking supplement afterwards. I need to understand the type of cardio that promotes highest burning of fat and least muscle breakdown and do that in the morning WITHOUT any supplements after it.
I appreciate your input mate but your way off with the cortisol issue, it doesn't choose to burn fat in the morning and muscle at night. The whole point of the morning fast is because cortisol levels are naturally high first thing then drop off considerable after a couple of hours, then gradually lower for the rest of the day until around 2am when they start to build up again for the next morning. Cortisol is less important at night because there is considerably less of it and the levels are negligible in terms of being catabolic. As soon as you have an insulin spiking shale in the morning, cortisol is no longer fighting the fat, that is the whole point.I'm not sure if keifer does recommend HIIT in the morning in his book? It appears from a post above that he says HIIT should be done an hour before weight training, which makes way more sense. I understand how HIIT works but i guess my point is that it shouldn't be done in the morning to the extent that you need an insulin spiking supplement afterwards. I need to understand the type of cardio that promotes highest burning of fat and least muscle breakdown and do that in the morning WITHOUT any supplements after it.
My wording was off, but yes, utilizing the cortisol spike in the AM for fat burning is the intent. That said, cortisol can turn to burning muscle, and this sort of thing can specifically happen after intense resistance work (esp. exceeding 45-60 minutes), and from what I've read (in publications), is a greater possibility with unwanted spikes in the evenings.In CNS, Keifer says to refrain from HIIT, however, I guess edits were made. In the Shockwave Ripped protocol, he recommends HIIT twice a week, fasted, directly after a CN.Cory
Thanks man, I'll play about with what works best for me. To start with i'll just do the heavy resistance evening training and see how things go, then look to add in fasted exercise of some kind at a later date. Key is to get the timing and supplements sorted out first.CheersAl
Thanks man, I'll play about with what works best for me. To start with i'll just do the heavy resistance evening training and see how things go, then look to add in fasted exercise of some kind at a later date. Key is to get the timing and supplements sorted out first.CheersAl
Yeah, it is all tweaking, my friend. I've had minor stalls, here and there, and tweaked this or that, and progress re-ignites. 🙂Recently, I added an additional day of morning HIIT cardio (2nd day from CN), and lowered my lifting schedule to 3 days from 4. Progress sped back up. Went from losing around ~.25 - .5 lbs. of fat per week, to 1 lb. (more like my first couple months on the diet). I am down to those last ~12 lbs. from my goal, so it is getting tougher.Keifer is always tweaking -- perfecting, if you will. He'll do more research, and tweak something re: the diets. Did you know that the 12-hour fast is nowhere in CNS book? Nor is the morning coffee. This is precisely what I am getting at.Doesn't mean the diets didn't work as they were, just means they work better now with added elements.Good luck on your journey.Cory
Something I've been doing for the past two weeks and might be beneficial to doing HIIT fasted in the mornings. Plus could be useful. Every other day I lift, and pretty much do a Bodybuilder type split. The next morning I would do 30 second sprint with high resistance on, followed by 2 minutes of no resistance. 5-6 bouts depending on how I feel. Afterwards, what ever body part I did the day before I would do a drop set or push to failure movement. Like this morning, did HIIT, then cranked out as many push-ups as I can waited 45-60 seconds and did another set. Really depleted my glycogen stores from my backload last night.
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