Problems getting to the 10% BF level and below

[bbuchan]

Hey guys, I've been hovering between 10.5% and 12% BF for several months now.  I originally used CN to get from 17% to 11% where my progress seemed to stall out and my performance in the gym went to crap.  Just felt absolutely weak and my lifts were going down to I switched to CBL and backloaded with around 500g carbs and strength went back up but BF stayed about the same.  Recently on a forum post about shredding BF for a physique contest, Kiefer recommended having all your carbs during and immediately post training about having around 200-250g in order to drop to the low levels of BF.  This was from Biojacked #15 with John Meadows.  This week I have implemented this and although I am dropping weight, I look significantly smoother (lost veins in the lower abs).  On Sunday morning I was 196lbs and 10.5%BF (by a Tanita Ironman bioelectrical impedance scale) and this morning (Wednesday) I am 193lbs and 12.1%BF on the same scale weighed under the same conditions and time of day.  You guys got any suggestions for me?  Should I continue and see what happens?  I realize I haven't given it a significant amount of time yet, it just isn't looking promising at the moment when I'm 3 days in.  Here is my current schedule:7:30am Wake up8:30am 2mg Nicotine gum9:30am 2mg Nicotine gum11:00am Coffee/1tbsp coconut oil1pm  10 oz 80/20 Ground Beef, 1tbsp coconut oil, 10g whey isolate, 1 cup cottage cheese, 3g fish oil5pm 10g whey isolate/1tbsp coconut oil5:30pm Train (shockwave protocol), 15 min into training start sipping on 50g maltodextrin/25g casein hydrolysate/5g leucineImmediately post training 50g maltodextrin/along with hypertrophic potentiator shake (isolate, whey + casein hydrolysates, casein, leucine, creatine, beta alanine, caffein)1 hour post workout: 100g of pure carbs (white rice, white potato or sweet potato) along with 10g casein hydrolysate + leucine and a cut of chicken, turkey or salmon, 1.5g fish oilPre-Bed: Casein or cottage cheese, 1.5g fish oilI am getting around 130g fat basically all pre-training, 200g carbs all intra and immediately post training, and around 225g protein throughout the day.  My calories generally come out around 3000 but I don't really shoot for a certain number.  I have around 1300 calories pre-training.I also have no dairy, no gluten and no plant fats of any kind and I don't do cardio. To me I am doing everything perfectly yet I am waking up smoother and the scale is going down but it says my BF % is going up.  What do you guys think?  Thanks everyone in advance

[Chuck]

Completely speculative-Pretty good posts; so try cutting cheeses, cutting any eggs that may spike insulin in the AM. 190lbs (target weight?)190 grams protein190 grams fatPost training carb up.Accuracy of your scale:http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=56830

[raisethebarbell]

Could the slow digesting casien before bed be limiting your fasting window?I'd start there. Anything slow may not be getting you that 12-14 hour fast. Maybe just take it sooner, like 8pm instead of 10 pm, for example. Good luck!

[CptSmash]

bbuchan,Sounds like a conudrum, but here's what I would try...1.  Get rid of the cottage cheese before bed.  You want a fast spike and fast decline in insulin levels.  Sleep okay?2.  You need more kcals...I think you've sliced your overall kcals too low and your body just doesn't have enough extra to burn.  I eat more than you do at my mid-day meal.  You've got to give your body something to burn.  I was stalling out before b/c I wasn't sure on how much pro:fats to be consuming before, now I'm consistently getting a drop with calipers.3.  Have coffee earlier in the morning.  I'm having mine right as I wake up.  Then have some more with some coconut oil about 8:30-9:30 so you help release more ketone production.  I was skeptic of this at first, but it works.4.  Pre-Bed = 1-2 scoops whey isolate + 1T coconut oil  (spikes insulin and stores--I don't have research to back this up, but it seems to knock me right out and my sleep is superb) combine with 3mg of melatonin to really sleep solidly.5.  HIIT--> Just because Keifer doesn't want you doing long distance cardio, you should still be incorporating some sprinting 1-3days/week.  HIIT it hard!  Fasted...exercise is still the stimulus that makes this work.6.  Give it two weeks with the improvements before switching anything around again.  Unless you're getting show ready, then we've got problems.  General advice 5-14 days for changes at times.  Sometimes you just fluctuate for a while before coming back down.  Your body is pretty smart...you've gotta be smarter.7.  Before you implement all these take a day off and eat ad libitum if you can.  All day, just eat whatever you want, but keep it fairly clean, not too much junk...then ULC for 2-3 days.  I'm just looking for a response out of your body.  (Sometimes you just need a break).

[Luis S.]

Thats some great advice gremlin! Im definitely goint to be on track with some of this stuff. Bbuchan how long did it take you to go from 17% to 11%? I know everyone is different, but im on my 3rd week and around 17% also and would just like some sort of refference to go by.

[bbuchan]

Thanks for the thorough response Gremlin!  Some really great advice in there, I appreciate the time you took on that.  My sleep has been pretty good and overall my stress levels I feel are fairly low.  I'll take a restart day (ad libitum diet) this weekend and then go from there.  Thanks for the advice man.

[bbuchan]

Thats some great advice gremlin! Im definitely goint to be on track with some of this stuff. Bbuchan how long did it take you to go from 17% to 11%? I know everyone is different, but im on my 3rd week and around 17% also and would just like some sort of refference to go by.

For me the drop from 17% to 11% didn't take long at all, about a month I believe maybe a little more than a month.  I did Carb Nite during this time along with fasted morning LISS cardio about 5 days a week for 45 min at a time.  However when I got close to 11% my fat loss dropped off and my strength started dropping rapidly so I switched to straight CBL SA for several weeks and gained some strength and muscle.  Now I am trying to fine tune CBL to continue dropping fat to get to the 6-8% range.  Right now I don't care about building muscle, just maintaining what I have while I shed fat.  Once I reach my BF goal, I will turn my attention to building muscle while trying to stay in the 6-8% range.

[Luis S.]

Thats some great advice gremlin! Im definitely goint to be on track with some of this stuff. Bbuchan how long did it take you to go from 17% to 11%? I know everyone is different, but im on my 3rd week and around 17% also and would just like some sort of refference to go by.

For me the drop from 17% to 11% didn't take long at all, about a month I believe maybe a little more than a month.  I did Carb Nite during this time along with fasted morning LISS cardio about 5 days a week for 45 min at a time.  However when I got close to 11% my fat loss dropped off and my strength started dropping rapidly so I switched to straight CBL SA for several weeks and gained some strength and muscle.  Now I am trying to fine tune CBL to continue dropping fat to get to the 6-8% range.  Right now I don't care about building muscle, just maintaining what I have while I shed fat.  Once I reach my BF goal, I will turn my attention to building muscle while trying to stay in the 6-8% range.

Oh dam! Thats fast! A lot faster than im dropping fat at the moment. Might start to incorporate cardio fasted in the mornings to see if that picks things up a bit. Will be doing HIIT with kettlebells. This time around im keeping a tight grip on my diet generally eating the same meals and altering as i go, but everything i eats is beef, chicken, bacon, eggs, coconut oil, and hwc. Nothing more appart from supplements which is just wpi, creatine, and leucine pwo. Hope to see some results like yours, they are really impressive!

[CptSmash]

For me the drop from 17% to 11% didn't take long at all, about a month I believe maybe a little more than a month.  I did Carb Nite during this time along with fasted morning LISS cardio about 5 days a week for 45 min at a time.  However when I got close to 11% my fat loss dropped off and my strength started dropping rapidly so I switched to straight CBL SA for several weeks and gained some strength and muscle.  Now I am trying to fine tune CBL to continue dropping fat to get to the 6-8% range.  Right now I don't care about building muscle, just maintaining what I have while I shed fat.  Once I reach my BF goal, I will turn my attention to building muscle while trying to stay in the 6-8% range.

That's good stuff.  That could be why you stalled out though.  That quickly dropping bodyfat would kill leptin levels within the body.  You just got to keep it confused.  I'm starving, not starving, starving, not starving...the body doesn't know you are manipulating the macros, so much as it knows how much storage levels (ie. bodyfat there is) through leptin.  If you can get leptin levels to stabilize then you can resume bodyfat loss.  And I want to say if you can maintain a lower threshold of bodyfat for about a month period, you can reset the bodies 'set point'.  I can't back this up, but I believe it's true from personal experience, as it is easier to drop down to lower levels of bodyfat, once you've been there.  Kinda like muscle memory.  You train it to get down to those lower bodyfat levels and it'll remember it for the next time you want to drop down, or you can sustain it much easier.It's getting there that's the hard part.

[bbuchan]

For me the drop from 17% to 11% didn't take long at all, about a month I believe maybe a little more than a month.  I did Carb Nite during this time along with fasted morning LISS cardio about 5 days a week for 45 min at a time.  However when I got close to 11% my fat loss dropped off and my strength started dropping rapidly so I switched to straight CBL SA for several weeks and gained some strength and muscle.  Now I am trying to fine tune CBL to continue dropping fat to get to the 6-8% range.  Right now I don't care about building muscle, just maintaining what I have while I shed fat.  Once I reach my BF goal, I will turn my attention to building muscle while trying to stay in the 6-8% range.

That's good stuff.  That could be why you stalled out though.  That quickly dropping bodyfat would kill leptin levels within the body.  You just got to keep it confused.  I'm starving, not starving, starving, not starving...the body doesn't know you are manipulating the macros, so much as it knows how much storage levels (ie. bodyfat there is) through leptin.  If you can get leptin levels to stabilize then you can resume bodyfat loss.  And I want to say if you can maintain a lower threshold of bodyfat for about a month period, you can reset the bodies 'set point'.  I can't back this up, but I believe it's true from personal experience, as it is easier to drop down to lower levels of bodyfat, once you've been there.  Kinda like muscle memory.  You train it to get down to those lower bodyfat levels and it'll remember it for the next time you want to drop down, or you can sustain it much easier.It's getting there that's the hard part.

So with this are you recommending I maybe focus on building muscle for about a month by having big backloads while letting my leptin reset and maybe giving my metabolism a kick start by having a surplus of calories? Also when backloading how many cals and macros (fat/protein) do you have gremlin before training during the ULC part of the day? The recommendations from the appendix for me were something like 150g protein and 35g fat but that seems to be completely off from the recommendations of the forum. I've been doing about 90g protein and 110g fat

[CptSmash]

Try my initial recommendations for two weeks.  If that doesn't work, take a break and come back to this as an option.  There are a lot of ways to go.  If you have the time, use it to your advantage.  Figure out what will work for you.  A lot of strategies will work, but you have to give them time to work. 

[bbuchan]

Just wanted to say thanks again for the thorough response.  I had 1.5 scoops of isolate pre-bed last night along with 1.5g fish oil and 1tbsp coconut oil and this morning I looked leaner and harder than I had the previous 3 days and the scale read 194lbs, 10.4% BF.  Seemed to work like a charm.  Thanks again gremlin

[Macca]

Just wanted to say thanks again for the thorough response.  I had 1.5 scoops of isolate pre-bed last night along with 1.5g fish oil and 1tbsp coconut oil and this morning I looked leaner and harder than I had the previous 3 days and the scale read 194lbs, 10.4% BF.  Seemed to work like a charm.  Thanks again gremlin

Sorry for the highjack, but what's the reasoning behind the coconut oil / fish oil with the pre bed isolate shot?I've been doing something similar, but with 5g of leucine and 30g of isolate (no oils), trying to create a short sharp insulin spike before bed and providing a few amino's to boot.I've got no problems adding in a bit of oil if it's going to help 🙂

[CptSmash]

Just wanted to say thanks again for the thorough response.  I had 1.5 scoops of isolate pre-bed last night along with 1.5g fish oil and 1tbsp coconut oil and this morning I looked leaner and harder than I had the previous 3 days and the scale read 194lbs, 10.4% BF.  Seemed to work like a charm.  Thanks again gremlin

Sorry for the highjack, but what's the reasoning behind the coconut oil / fish oil with the pre bed isolate shot?I've been doing something similar, but with 5g of leucine and 30g of isolate (no oils), trying to create a short sharp insulin spike before bed and providing a few amino's to boot.  That would work too, but the MCT oil will get into your system faster and start increasing thermogenesis, just a theory really, but I'm basing it off some research on the intake of MCT vs LCFA, whereas the FFA release from MCT oil was about 28% higher than LCFA.  Plus, it fits...short insulin spike with whey isolate, then a bit of MCT to help increase FFA release...errr...it's more ketone release but you get the idea.  I think Leucine and isolate would cause a similar effect.  But I want to try and drop into ketosis as quickly as possible.  I could be way far off on this, but I feel like it's working.I've got no problems adding in a bit of oil if it's going to help 🙂

So with this are you recommending I maybe focus on building muscle for about a month by having big backloads while letting my leptin reset and maybe giving my metabolism a kick start by having a surplus of calories?  Yes, give your body a break and increase carbs to help get back in gear.  Your weight might fluctuate until it get's adjusted but it shouldn't be too much.  Then you can always start over once your metabolism is back in gear!Also when backloading how many cals and macros (fat/protein) do you have gremlin before training during the ULC part of the day? The recommendations from the appendix for me were something like 150g protein and 35g fat but that seems to be completely off from the recommendations of the forum. I've been doing about 90g protein and 110g fatHonestly I don't have a recommendation that I can give you on certain macros, I just go by how I feel.  I've been eating a low carb diet a while before I switched to CBL, and I just focus on how much I need.  I get a couple of servings of meat and fats in the AM when I can't fast anymore, then I eat a big salad with some more meat and animal fats with some vinegar and mustard typically...then I train.  That's it.  Listen to your body and do what it tells you.  If you're still hungry after a meal and need to eat pre-training have some whey isolate with some cream or MCT oil.  Maybe a 20g-10g scoop, just enough to get you through.  It's all about your body, I can give you advice all day long, but if you need more protein and fats your body will tell you.

[Macca]

Just wanted to say thanks again for the thorough response.  I had 1.5 scoops of isolate pre-bed last night along with 1.5g fish oil and 1tbsp coconut oil and this morning I looked leaner and harder than I had the previous 3 days and the scale read 194lbs, 10.4% BF.  Seemed to work like a charm.  Thanks again gremlin

Sorry for the highjack, but what's the reasoning behind the coconut oil / fish oil with the pre bed isolate shot?I've been doing something similar, but with 5g of leucine and 30g of isolate (no oils), trying to create a short sharp insulin spike before bed and providing a few amino's to boot.  That would work too, but the MCT oil will get into your system faster and start increasing thermogenesis, just a theory really, but I'm basing it off some research on the intake of MCT vs LCFA, whereas the FFA release from MCT oil was about 28% higher than LCFA.  Plus, it fits...short insulin spike with whey isolate, then a bit of MCT to help increase FFA release...errr...it's more ketone release but you get the idea.  I think Leucine and isolate would cause a similar effect.  But I want to try and drop into ketosis as quickly as possible.  I could be way far off on this, but I feel like it's working.I've got no problems adding in a bit of oil if it's going to help 🙂

Thanks for the info - I'll switch over t0 10/15g of MCT oil for a week and see how we go.CheersMacca

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