Protein confusion

[bdw531]

While the subject may look like a lame Tony Horton-inspired protein theory, its not. I'm just looking for some help on what protein to buy  ;DSo far all I have is ON Gold Standard Whey (Isolate), and I'm confused as to what else I need to get. In the book, Kiefer talks about a few different shakes:AM Accelerator: whey isolate, coffee, mct/coconut oilPre-training (ignitor): whey isolate, coffee, mct/coconut oil, creatineIntra-Training (sustainer): whey isolate, casein hydrolysate, leucinePost-Workout: caffeine powder, whey isolate, carb powder, casein, hydrolysate (whey or casein or both), leucine, creatine  So I based on that, in addition to my ON isolate I need to buy:-casein hydrolysate-casein-whey hydrolysate(I'm just talking about protein because I have the coffee, creatine, leucine, and coconut oil)Whew, I'm thinking I need to find more cabinet space! But then I find this article: http://www.dangerouslyhardcore.com/236/protein-supplementation-2-0/where Kiefer talks about making blends at either protein factory or true protein:==="Blend one:ProteinFactory.com: At ProteinFactory, select Custom Protein Lab from the top menu. In the popup, agree to their terms. On the next page, choose “All-Purpose” for the blend type (it gives the least amount of annoying suggestions, which, most of the time, are wrong). Select 35% CFM Whey Isolate, 10% Hydrolyzed 1400, 15% PeptoPro and 40% Heliogen Casein. This blend balances cost with growth potential as gathered from the research. Skip through the next few steps until reaching “Flavors and Additives”. Pick a flavor and sweetener (I suggest Splenda) and skip the additives. On the next step, choose the number of pounds to order and add to the cart for purchase.TrueProtein.com: At TrueProtein, in the main navigation go Products » Formulas » Custom Solutions. Select 40% Micellar Casein, 10% Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade, 15% Hydrolyzed Casein, and 35% Whey Protein Isolate (CFM). Here, the blend is cheaper, but doesn’t taste as good (swapping hydrolyzed casein for PeptoPro fixes the taste, but raises the price). Follow the rest of the steps accordingly.Blend Two:Using the steps as above for Protein factory, create a blend of 40% Hydrolyzed 1400, 10% Hydrolyzed 520 and 50% Bio-Fresh Whey Isolate.For TrueProtein, follow the steps above to create this mixture: 50% Whey Protein Isolate Microfiltrated, 40% Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade and 10% Hydrolyzed Whey Isolate Ultra Grade."===So I'm starting to like this idea, buy it pre-blended and save on time and cabinet space. However, I noticed some inconsistencies.The book has 3 shakes with different protein ingredients (AM and pre-workout use the same protein), while the article has 2 blends. The book talks about whey for AM and ignitor, whey and casein hydrolysate for intra workout, and whey, casein, and hydrolysate for post-workout. The article says Blend 1 (whey, casein, and both hydrolysates) all day, then blend 2 (whey and hydrolyzed whey) for post-workout. Am I overthinking this or missing something? Which is more current, CBL 1.0 or the article referenced above? The article doesn't address intra-workout specifically, would I use Blend 1 or 2 for intra-workout, or would I have to buy casein hydrolysate seperate to mix with my whey and leucine?Postscript:(I am aware that protein factory also sells pre-blended DH based Blends D & H, I'm leaving that out of this discussion because those blends don't match Blends 1 and 2 above and thats a whole different issue and source of confusion so I'm going to pretend I never read it). Thanks for any guidance/clarification!

[Cory McCarthy]

While the subject may look like a lame Tony Horton-inspired protein theory, its not. I'm just looking for some help on what protein to buy  ;DSo far all I have is ON Gold Standard Whey (Isolate), and I'm confused as to what else I need to get. In the book, Kiefer talks about a few different shakes:AM Accelerator: whey isolate, coffee, mct/coconut oilPre-training (ignitor): whey isolate, coffee, mct/coconut oil, creatineIntra-Training (sustainer): whey isolate, casein hydrolysate, leucinePost-Workout: caffeine powder, whey isolate, carb powder, casein, hydrolysate (whey or casein or both), leucine, creatine  So I based on that, in addition to my ON isolate I need to buy:-casein hydrolysate-casein-whey hydrolysate(I'm just talking about protein because I have the coffee, creatine, leucine, and coconut oil)Whew, I'm thinking I need to find more cabinet space! But then I find this article: http://www.dangerouslyhardcore.com/236/protein-supplementation-2-0/where Kiefer talks about making blends at either protein factory or true protein:==="Blend one:ProteinFactory.com: At ProteinFactory, select Custom Protein Lab from the top menu. In the popup, agree to their terms. On the next page, choose “All-Purpose” for the blend type (it gives the least amount of annoying suggestions, which, most of the time, are wrong). Select 35% CFM Whey Isolate, 10% Hydrolyzed 1400, 15% PeptoPro and 40% Heliogen Casein. This blend balances cost with growth potential as gathered from the research. Skip through the next few steps until reaching “Flavors and Additives”. Pick a flavor and sweetener (I suggest Splenda) and skip the additives. On the next step, choose the number of pounds to order and add to the cart for purchase.TrueProtein.com: At TrueProtein, in the main navigation go Products » Formulas » Custom Solutions. Select 40% Micellar Casein, 10% Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade, 15% Hydrolyzed Casein, and 35% Whey Protein Isolate (CFM). Here, the blend is cheaper, but doesn’t taste as good (swapping hydrolyzed casein for PeptoPro fixes the taste, but raises the price). Follow the rest of the steps accordingly.Blend Two:Using the steps as above for Protein factory, create a blend of 40% Hydrolyzed 1400, 10% Hydrolyzed 520 and 50% Bio-Fresh Whey Isolate.For TrueProtein, follow the steps above to create this mixture: 50% Whey Protein Isolate Microfiltrated, 40% Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade and 10% Hydrolyzed Whey Isolate Ultra Grade."===So I'm starting to like this idea, buy it pre-blended and save on time and cabinet space. However, I noticed some inconsistencies.The book has 3 shakes with different protein ingredients (AM and pre-workout use the same protein), while the article has 2 blends. The book talks about whey for AM and ignitor, whey and casein hydrolysate for intra workout, and whey, casein, and hydrolysate for post-workout. The article says Blend 1 (whey, casein, and both hydrolysates) all day, then blend 2 (whey and hydrolyzed whey) for post-workout. Am I overthinking this or missing something? Which is more current, CBL 1.0 or the article referenced above? The article doesn't address intra-workout specifically, would I use Blend 1 or 2 for intra-workout, or would I have to buy casein hydrolysate seperate to mix with my whey and leucine?Postscript:(I am aware that protein factory also sells pre-blended DH based Blends D & H, I'm leaving that out of this discussion because those blends don't match Blends 1 and 2 above and thats a whole different issue and source of confusion so I'm going to pretend I never read it). Thanks for any guidance/clarification!

Firstly, ON Gold Standard is a concentrate blend with isolates, not pure isolate.Second, these basics would suffice:PRE:5g creatine16oz. black coffee1 tbsp coconut oilINTRA:WaterPOST:2 scoops whey isolate (or 1:1 of whey isolate + casein)50+ grams of fast carb (I tend to go 75g).5g creatine5g Leucine or 10g BCAAsFeel free to add a pinch of salt to all three mixes, which aids in vascularity.  You could also add an additional 5g creatine to the intra drink.  However, you should be training fasted.  Spike insulin only post-workout.Cory

[Cr Powerlinate]

You could get most of those staples from TrueNutrition, which is TrueProtein renamed.There are also discount codes for TrueNutrition for 5% off. AND028 is one of them. I'd recommend sticking to premium flavors, particularly for the hydrolysate. If you can spare it, PeptoPro is worth the extra cash over regular casein hydrolysate, due to the reduced bitterness in particular.Any other questions? I think Cory got the basics down pretty well.

[bdw531]

Firstly, ON Gold Standard is a concentrate blend with isolates, not pure isolate.Second, these basics would suffice:PRE:5g creatine16oz. black coffee1 tbsp coconut oilINTRA:WaterPOST:2 scoops whey isolate (or 1:1 of whey isolate + casein)50+ grams of fast carb (I tend to go 75g).5g creatine5g Leucine or 10g BCAAsFeel free to add a pinch of salt to all three mixes, which aids in vascularity.  You could also add an additional 5g creatine to the intra drink.  However, you should be training fasted.  Spike insulin only post-workout.Cory

Thanks - guess I need to check the ON label more closely! I plan on using up what ON I have and switching to something else. Where do you get your protein? I like the idea of ordering from pf or tn, even though paying for shipping kind of blowsThanks for the suggestions on the shakes.

[bdw531]

You could get most of those staples from TrueNutrition, which is TrueProtein renamed.There are also discount codes for TrueNutrition for 5% off. AND028 is one of them. I'd recommend sticking to premium flavors, particularly for the hydrolysate. If you can spare it, PeptoPro is worth the extra cash over regular casein hydrolysate, due to the reduced bitterness in particular.Any other questions? I think Cory got the basics down pretty well.

That should do it for now! I'm going to try an order from truenutrition. I made this blend for post-workout, to which I'll add dextrose, leucine, and creatine:- Micellar Casein [Milk] (25%)- PeptoPro – Hydrolyzed Caseinate [Milk] (20%)- Whey Protein Isolate – CFM Cross-Flow Microfiltration [Milk] (35%)- Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade [Milk] (20%) - Chocolate (Unsweetened)- Stevia (All-Natural Sweetener) The dextrose is so sweet I hope its enough to cover the hydrolysate without adding an extra dollar per pound for the premium flavoring. And I've never tried anything intra-workout besides water so I ordered a pound of this blend to try (also adding leucine):- PeptoPro – Hydrolyzed Caseinate [Milk] (65%)- Whey Protein Isolate – CFM Cross-Flow Microfiltration [Milk] (35%) - Premium Wild Berry Blast That should last me about 5 weeks, enough to see if I notice any difference. I'll post my review.

[Cr Powerlinate]

You could get most of those staples from TrueNutrition, which is TrueProtein renamed.There are also discount codes for TrueNutrition for 5% off. AND028 is one of them. I'd recommend sticking to premium flavors, particularly for the hydrolysate. If you can spare it, PeptoPro is worth the extra cash over regular casein hydrolysate, due to the reduced bitterness in particular.Any other questions? I think Cory got the basics down pretty well.

That should do it for now! I'm going to try an order from truenutrition. I made this blend for post-workout, to which I'll add dextrose, leucine, and creatine:- Micellar Casein [Milk] (25%)- PeptoPro – Hydrolyzed Caseinate [Milk] (20%)- Whey Protein Isolate – CFM Cross-Flow Microfiltration [Milk] (35%)- Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade [Milk] (20%) - Chocolate (Unsweetened)- Stevia (All-Natural Sweetener) The dextrose is so sweet I hope its enough to cover the hydrolysate without adding an extra dollar per pound for the premium flavoring. And I've never tried anything intra-workout besides water so I ordered a pound of this blend to try (also adding leucine):- PeptoPro – Hydrolyzed Caseinate [Milk] (65%)- Whey Protein Isolate – CFM Cross-Flow Microfiltration [Milk] (35%) - Premium Wild Berry Blast That should last me about 5 weeks, enough to see if I notice any difference. I'll post my review.

Sounds good. I'd really try a premium chocolate or at least sucralose over stevia. The flavor profile will be much better (rather than covering the hydro, might actually make the shake taste good too).Either way, solid profile for the shakes. Let us know how it turns out. (And remember to use a coupon code to save yourself 5%)

[Cory McCarthy]

Firstly, ON Gold Standard is a concentrate blend with isolates, not pure isolate.Second, these basics would suffice:PRE:5g creatine16oz. black coffee1 tbsp coconut oilINTRA:WaterPOST:2 scoops whey isolate (or 1:1 of whey isolate + casein)50+ grams of fast carb (I tend to go 75g).5g creatine5g Leucine or 10g BCAAsFeel free to add a pinch of salt to all three mixes, which aids in vascularity.  You could also add an additional 5g creatine to the intra drink.  However, you should be training fasted.  Spike insulin only post-workout.Cory

Thanks - guess I need to check the ON label more closely! I plan on using up what ON I have and switching to something else. Where do you get your protein? I like the idea of ordering from pf or tn, even though paying for shipping kind of blowsThanks for the suggestions on the shakes.

Welcome.I just ordered my first batch of protein from TN, and yes, the shipping was violating to say the least... it was more than 1 lb. of the protein!!!  Typically, I order from Swanson Vitamins... Now Sport makes a great Whey Isolate.  5 lbs., unflavored, for $60.Stick with Whey Isolate... PURE Isolate, not blends.  So many companies try to fudge shit... gotta check the label.Cory

[Cr Powerlinate]

Firstly, ON Gold Standard is a concentrate blend with isolates, not pure isolate.Second, these basics would suffice:PRE:5g creatine16oz. black coffee1 tbsp coconut oilINTRA:WaterPOST:2 scoops whey isolate (or 1:1 of whey isolate + casein)50+ grams of fast carb (I tend to go 75g).5g creatine5g Leucine or 10g BCAAsFeel free to add a pinch of salt to all three mixes, which aids in vascularity.  You could also add an additional 5g creatine to the intra drink.  However, you should be training fasted.  Spike insulin only post-workout.Cory

Thanks - guess I need to check the ON label more closely! I plan on using up what ON I have and switching to something else. Where do you get your protein? I like the idea of ordering from pf or tn, even though paying for shipping kind of blowsThanks for the suggestions on the shakes.

Welcome.I just ordered my first batch of protein from TN, and yes, the shipping was violating to say the least... it was more than 1 lb. of the protein!!!  Typically, I order from Swanson Vitamins... Now Sport makes a great Whey Isolate.  5 lbs., unflavored, for $60.Stick with Whey Isolate... PURE Isolate, not blends.  So many companies try to fudge shit... gotta check the label.Cory

As important as ensuring that it is pure isolate, check the amount of protein relative to the serving size. Per 30g serving, you should be receiving 25-27g of protein depending on flavoring. Less than that and they're using a large number of stabilizers, emulsifiers and flavoring agents to bulk up the powder and cut their costs. 

[Cory McCarthy]

As important as ensuring that it is pure isolate, check the amount of protein relative to the serving size. Per 30g serving, you should be receiving 25-27g of protein depending on flavoring. Less than that and they're using a large number of stabilizers, emulsifiers and flavoring agents to bulk up the powder and cut their costs.

+1...and some companies, like MGN, may not have even been using protein (sometimes just milk powder), and lying on the labels.  MGN has since fixed their problem, after they were scolded years ago.You get what you pay for, so if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.  Some companies try to get away with it, b/c 3rd party lab testing isn't cheap, and they bank on not being caught.Cory

[BostonBully]

I know I'm bringing back an old thread but I figured why start a new one.  The mixes posted at the begining of the thread were from Kiefer back in 2010 and I know things have changed since then. What is the current best mix for a shake that can be taken throughout the day and also taken post workout?  I don't really want to worry about one for the day and one for post workout.  I know it won't be totally ideal but I'm willing to compromise.

[Richard Schmitt]

Shake throughout the day is not really recommended and a shake for PWO, try searching the forums. If you want a shake for during the day. The book has a great recommendation.

[Mikehr]

I know I'm bringing back an old thread but I figured why start a new one.  The mixes posted at the begining of the thread were from Kiefer back in 2010 and I know things have changed since then. What is the current best mix for a shake that can be taken throughout the day and also taken post workout?  I don't really want to worry about one for the day and one for post workout.  I know it won't be totally ideal but I'm willing to compromise.

Well shakes aren't reccomended during the ULC portion of the day because they spike insuling as for PWO, 30g WPI, 30 hydrosylates, 10g creatine, 5g leucine, dextrose (the amount is based on your goals between 20-75g is the norm) and 200-600mg caffeine. that is what I do and a many other members do. Hope that helps

[BostonBully]

Shake throughout the day is not really recommended and a shake for PWO, try searching the forums. If you want a shake for during the day. The book has a great recommendation.

Doesn't eating in general spike insulin to some degree? Obviously some things more then others.  I usually eat dinner around 7 pm so If I do a 14 hour fast I'm eating something by 9 am.  I usually have a snack, lunch, and another snack pre workout all ULC.  Drinking a shake would be alot easier for some of the meals because sometimes I'm in a time crunch.  Eating more frequently also seems to work best for me.

[Richard Schmitt]

Ok well depends on how much of this shake you're going to consume. Anything above 10g with added fats won't do you any good.

[Mikehr]

The leucine content in whey protein spikes insulin a good bit more than a fatty meat would, but maybe a shake with a couple tbsp of CO would be ok but for me Id rather be safe than sorry.

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