Saturated Fat

[Alan Torell]

One thing I'd like to know is what podcast/article does Kiefer mention that plant fats/oils are inferior to animal fats/coconut oil?Since reading up on the forum about it, I've been put off snacking on almonds/brazils/walnuts and I've not touched my cold-pressed rapeseed oil.

That should be fine for nuts. If you seem to stall then cut them out.Omega-3's are great, but worthless when coming from plant sources.Rapeseed oil is also worse for cooking then EVOO, although EVOO isn't great either.If you are gonna supplement omega-3 then use EPA/DHA rich fish oil.

Plant source omega-3's are not worthless, just totally inefficient enzyme conversion in our metabolism to long chain omega-3's (EPA and DHA) that we use. Flax is much better fed to chickens to let them convert to EPA and DHA for meat and eggs. That's how omega-3 enriched eggs are produced. Stick to animal sources of omega-3 as others have stated (wild fish, fish oil, grass-fed/pastured animals).Don't cook with omega-3 oil of any type... just like omega-6 rich oils (seed oils), they are polyunsaturated and easily oxidized by heat.

I was simply stating that they are useless for humans to supplement with.But yeah, spot on. I die a little inside when I see people cooking with flax oil.

Sure, that's how I took your comment. I just thought it would be useful to mentioned some of the "why."

[Kidfo]

I am not sure if this has ever been asked before but has Kiefer ever addressed development of Kidney stones on long term Keto. Does the refeed once a week prevents it? As per Paul Jaminet's site, "Kidney stones are a frequent occurrence on the ketogenic diet for epilepsy. [1, 2, 3] About 1 in 20 children on the ketogenic diet develop kidney stones per year, compared with one in several thousand among the general population. [4] On children who follow the ketogenic diet for six years, the incidence of kidney stones is about 25% [5].A 100-fold odds ratio is hardly ever seen in medicine. There must be some fundamental cause of kidney stones that is dramatically promoted by clinical ketogenic diets."He goes on to explain it herehttp://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-iv-kidney-stones/

[Brandon D Christ]

I am not sure if this has ever been asked before but has Kiefer ever addressed development of Kidney stones on long term Keto. Does the refeed once a week prevents it? As per Paul Jaminet's site, "Kidney stones are a frequent occurrence on the ketogenic diet for epilepsy. [1, 2, 3] About 1 in 20 children on the ketogenic diet develop kidney stones per year, compared with one in several thousand among the general population. [4] On children who follow the ketogenic diet for six years, the incidence of kidney stones is about 25% [5].A 100-fold odds ratio is hardly ever seen in medicine. There must be some fundamental cause of kidney stones that is dramatically promoted by clinical ketogenic diets."He goes on to explain it herehttp://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-iv-kidney-stones/

I asked this question before.  It never got answered.  However, it is important to note that a cyclic ketogenic diet or even just a regular ketogenic diet, is not the same as the one given to epileptic children.  Those diets are about 90% fat, and 10% protein and they don't have refeeds.

[Alan Torell]

I am not sure if this has ever been asked before but has Kiefer ever addressed development of Kidney stones on long term Keto. Does the refeed once a week prevents it? As per Paul Jaminet's site, "Kidney stones are a frequent occurrence on the ketogenic diet for epilepsy. [1, 2, 3] About 1 in 20 children on the ketogenic diet develop kidney stones per year, compared with one in several thousand among the general population. [4] On children who follow the ketogenic diet for six years, the incidence of kidney stones is about 25% [5].A 100-fold odds ratio is hardly ever seen in medicine. There must be some fundamental cause of kidney stones that is dramatically promoted by clinical ketogenic diets."He goes on to explain it herehttp://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-iv-kidney-stones/

Interesting article. Makes me very curious about the differences metabolically of a cyclic ketogenic approach vs. the zero carb or epileptic ketogenic diets (as pointed out by ibobland above).I wonder if hydration is going to be one of the keys to this (suggested in the blog post).Also interesting are the blog comments about Vitamin C degradation and omega-3 oxidation (if substantiated). Both of these could be partly (or more?) halted by increased glutathione. According to Kiefer's information (see supplement section in CBL), whey isolate is good at increasing glutathione, as are eggs IFIRC - both of those seem to be significant components of both CNS and CBL approaches to nutrition.

[Kidfo]

I am not sure if this has ever been asked before but has Kiefer ever addressed development of Kidney stones on long term Keto. Does the refeed once a week prevents it? As per Paul Jaminet's site, "Kidney stones are a frequent occurrence on the ketogenic diet for epilepsy. [1, 2, 3] About 1 in 20 children on the ketogenic diet develop kidney stones per year, compared with one in several thousand among the general population. [4] On children who follow the ketogenic diet for six years, the incidence of kidney stones is about 25% [5].A 100-fold odds ratio is hardly ever seen in medicine. There must be some fundamental cause of kidney stones that is dramatically promoted by clinical ketogenic diets."He goes on to explain it herehttp://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-iv-kidney-stones/

Interesting article. Makes me very curious about the differences metabolically of a cyclic ketogenic approach vs. the zero carb or epileptic ketogenic diets (as pointed out by ibobland above).I wonder if hydration is going to be one of the keys to this (suggested in the blog post).Also interesting are the blog comments about Vitamin C degradation and omega-3 oxidation (if substantiated). Both of these could be partly (or more?) halted by increased glutathione. According to Kiefer's information (see supplement section in CBL), whey isolate is good at increasing glutathione, as are eggs IFIRC - both of those seem to be significant components of both CNS and CBL approaches to nutrition.

I think maybe one of the best things would be to take NAC. I asked Paul in his Q/A section and he says up to 3000mg is fine to take.

[Alan Torell]

NAC? N-acetylcysteine?

[Kidfo]

Yeap, that is what he recommends in that article as well.

[cloudybrain]

I am not sure if this has ever been asked before but has Kiefer ever addressed development of Kidney stones on long term Keto. Does the refeed once a week prevents it? As per Paul Jaminet's site, "Kidney stones are a frequent occurrence on the ketogenic diet for epilepsy. [1, 2, 3] About 1 in 20 children on the ketogenic diet develop kidney stones per year, compared with one in several thousand among the general population. [4] On children who follow the ketogenic diet for six years, the incidence of kidney stones is about 25% [5].A 100-fold odds ratio is hardly ever seen in medicine. There must be some fundamental cause of kidney stones that is dramatically promoted by clinical ketogenic diets."He goes on to explain it herehttp://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-iv-kidney-stones/

Interesting article. Makes me very curious about the differences metabolically of a cyclic ketogenic approach vs. the zero carb or epileptic ketogenic diets (as pointed out by ibobland above).I wonder if hydration is going to be one of the keys to this (suggested in the blog post).Also interesting are the blog comments about Vitamin C degradation and omega-3 oxidation (if substantiated). Both of these could be partly (or more?) halted by increased glutathione. According to Kiefer's information (see supplement section in CBL), whey isolate is good at increasing glutathione, as are eggs IFIRC - both of those seem to be significant components of both CNS and CBL approaches to nutrition.

I think maybe one of the best things would be to take NAC. I asked Paul in his Q/A section and he says up to 3000mg is fine to take.

There are a few reasons why I would take this article with a grain of salt. First, the study is based on children with developmental growing bones; small body frame - smaller calcium portions are more potent. Though I find it odd that the majority of children did NOT get any kidney stone development, if what the article says is true. You'd have to look at the reason why most people won't get kidney stones if they follow a correct ketogenic diet. And I just did.The article does NOT show that they understand fully what it means to follow a ketogenic diet. They exaggerated huge portions of the diet that THEY have a problem with. They think we consume way too much fat, way too much protein, way too much omega 3, stay away from water (because we apparently hate water?). Plus they make too many speculations that common things that a normal person needs is EXACTLY the same as what a ketogenic person needs.Take for example this statement: "glucose and ketones are generated from protein" this is clearly a statement that shows how uninformed they are about ketogenic diets. Protein is broken down into glucose ONLY in the over abundance of it.And the fact that ketogenic diets are lacking in the the ability to help with the kidneys; let's take a look at this statement:"Excess calcium in the urine (hypercalciuria) occurs due to increased bone demineralisation"This is true, only when you consume proteins and have a moderate intake level of calcium will there be excess calcium in the urine. But if you read further in a study provided here:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22127335"no clinical data support the hypothesis of a detrimental effect of HP diet on bone health, except in a context of inadequate calcium supply""The increase of acid and calcium excretion due to HP diet is also accused of constituting a favorable environment for kidney stones and renal ""no damaging effect of HP diets on kidney has been found in either observational or interventional studies and it seems that HP diets might be deleterious only in patients with preexisting metabolic renal dysfunction"So basically, the reason why Uric acid is reduced and oxalate production is not needed is because the body is isn't even taking in adequate levels of calcium to begin with. The proteins actually preserve what is there, and whenever calcium is introduced, it gets reabsorbed effectively in the intestines; leading to stronger and denser bones:studies to support this found here:http://www.jacn.org/content/24/suppl_6/526S.full.pdfhttp://www.jacn.org/content/20/suppl_5/403S.full.pdfhttp://www.jacn.org/content/20/suppl_5/403S.full.pdfsupported by:http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/low-carb-dieting.htmlWhat about vitamin C intake, better than eat carbs:http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/vitamin-c-deficiency.html"Carbohydrates compete with Vitamin C for access to the same metabolic pathways in the body"referenced by the article here: http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2005/pdf/2005-v20n03-p179.pdfThis is what 3 hours of studying gets you 🙂 In fact, if you use the internet correctly you can find a real study here:http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25This talks about the effects of protein intake on the kidney, causing no real damage to it.

[Brandon D Christ]

I am not sure if this has ever been asked before but has Kiefer ever addressed development of Kidney stones on long term Keto. Does the refeed once a week prevents it? As per Paul Jaminet's site, "Kidney stones are a frequent occurrence on the ketogenic diet for epilepsy. [1, 2, 3] About 1 in 20 children on the ketogenic diet develop kidney stones per year, compared with one in several thousand among the general population. [4] On children who follow the ketogenic diet for six years, the incidence of kidney stones is about 25% [5].A 100-fold odds ratio is hardly ever seen in medicine. There must be some fundamental cause of kidney stones that is dramatically promoted by clinical ketogenic diets."He goes on to explain it herehttp://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-iv-kidney-stones/

Interesting article. Makes me very curious about the differences metabolically of a cyclic ketogenic approach vs. the zero carb or epileptic ketogenic diets (as pointed out by ibobland above).I wonder if hydration is going to be one of the keys to this (suggested in the blog post).Also interesting are the blog comments about Vitamin C degradation and omega-3 oxidation (if substantiated). Both of these could be partly (or more?) halted by increased glutathione. According to Kiefer's information (see supplement section in CBL), whey isolate is good at increasing glutathione, as are eggs IFIRC - both of those seem to be significant components of both CNS and CBL approaches to nutrition.

I think maybe one of the best things would be to take NAC. I asked Paul in his Q/A section and he says up to 3000mg is fine to take.

There are a few reasons why I would take this article with a grain of salt. First, the study is based on children with developmental growing bones; small body frame - smaller calcium portions are more potent. Though I find it odd that the majority of children did NOT get any kidney stone development, if what the article says is true. You'd have to look at the reason why most people won't get kidney stones if they follow a correct ketogenic diet. And I just did.The article does NOT show that they understand fully what it means to follow a ketogenic diet. They exaggerated huge portions of the diet that THEY have a problem with. They think we consume way too much fat, way too much protein, way too much omega 3, stay away from water (because we apparently hate water?). Plus they make too many speculations that common things that a normal person needs is EXACTLY the same as what a ketogenic person needs.Take for example this statement: "glucose and ketones are generated from protein" this is clearly a statement that shows how uninformed they are about ketogenic diets. Protein is broken down into glucose ONLY in the over abundance of it.And the fact that ketogenic diets are lacking in the the ability to help with the kidneys; let's take a look at this statement:"Excess calcium in the urine (hypercalciuria) occurs due to increased bone demineralisation"This is true, only when you consume proteins and have a moderate intake level of calcium will there be excess calcium in the urine. But if you read further in a study provided here:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22127335"no clinical data support the hypothesis of a detrimental effect of HP diet on bone health, except in a context of inadequate calcium supply""The increase of acid and calcium excretion due to HP diet is also accused of constituting a favorable environment for kidney stones and renal ""no damaging effect of HP diets on kidney has been found in either observational or interventional studies and it seems that HP diets might be deleterious only in patients with preexisting metabolic renal dysfunction"So basically, the reason why Uric acid is reduced and oxalate production is not needed is because the body is isn't even taking in adequate levels of calcium to begin with. The proteins actually preserve what is there, and whenever calcium is introduced, it gets reabsorbed effectively in the intestines; leading to stronger and denser bones:studies to support this found here:http://www.jacn.org/content/24/suppl_6/526S.full.pdfhttp://www.jacn.org/content/20/suppl_5/403S.full.pdfhttp://www.jacn.org/content/20/suppl_5/403S.full.pdfsupported by:http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/low-carb-dieting.htmlWhat about vitamin C intake, better than eat carbs:http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/vitamin-c-deficiency.html"Carbohydrates compete with Vitamin C for access to the same metabolic pathways in the body"referenced by the article here: http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2005/pdf/2005-v20n03-p179.pdfThis is what 3 hours of studying gets you 🙂 In fact, if you use the internet correctly you can find a real study here:http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25This talks about the effects of protein intake on the kidney, causing no real damage to it.

Good work.

[Alan Torell]

I am not sure if this has ever been asked before but has Kiefer ever addressed development of Kidney stones on long term Keto. Does the refeed once a week prevents it? As per Paul Jaminet's site, "Kidney stones are a frequent occurrence on the ketogenic diet for epilepsy. [1, 2, 3] About 1 in 20 children on the ketogenic diet develop kidney stones per year, compared with one in several thousand among the general population. [4] On children who follow the ketogenic diet for six years, the incidence of kidney stones is about 25% [5].A 100-fold odds ratio is hardly ever seen in medicine. There must be some fundamental cause of kidney stones that is dramatically promoted by clinical ketogenic diets."He goes on to explain it herehttp://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-iv-kidney-stones/

Interesting article. Makes me very curious about the differences metabolically of a cyclic ketogenic approach vs. the zero carb or epileptic ketogenic diets (as pointed out by ibobland above).I wonder if hydration is going to be one of the keys to this (suggested in the blog post).Also interesting are the blog comments about Vitamin C degradation and omega-3 oxidation (if substantiated). Both of these could be partly (or more?) halted by increased glutathione. According to Kiefer's information (see supplement section in CBL), whey isolate is good at increasing glutathione, as are eggs IFIRC - both of those seem to be significant components of both CNS and CBL approaches to nutrition.

I think maybe one of the best things would be to take NAC. I asked Paul in his Q/A section and he says up to 3000mg is fine to take.

There are a few reasons why I would take this article with a grain of salt. First, the study is based on children with developmental growing bones; small body frame - smaller calcium portions are more potent. Though I find it odd that the majority of children did NOT get any kidney stone development, if what the article says is true. You'd have to look at the reason why most people won't get kidney stones if they follow a correct ketogenic diet. And I just did.The article does NOT show that they understand fully what it means to follow a ketogenic diet. They exaggerated huge portions of the diet that THEY have a problem with. They think we consume way too much fat, way too much protein, way too much omega 3, stay away from water (because we apparently hate water?). Plus they make too many speculations that common things that a normal person needs is EXACTLY the same as what a ketogenic person needs.Take for example this statement: "glucose and ketones are generated from protein" this is clearly a statement that shows how uninformed they are about ketogenic diets. Protein is broken down into glucose ONLY in the over abundance of it.And the fact that ketogenic diets are lacking in the the ability to help with the kidneys; let's take a look at this statement:"Excess calcium in the urine (hypercalciuria) occurs due to increased bone demineralisation"This is true, only when you consume proteins and have a moderate intake level of calcium will there be excess calcium in the urine. But if you read further in a study provided here:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22127335"no clinical data support the hypothesis of a detrimental effect of HP diet on bone health, except in a context of inadequate calcium supply""The increase of acid and calcium excretion due to HP diet is also accused of constituting a favorable environment for kidney stones and renal ""no damaging effect of HP diets on kidney has been found in either observational or interventional studies and it seems that HP diets might be deleterious only in patients with preexisting metabolic renal dysfunction"So basically, the reason why Uric acid is reduced and oxalate production is not needed is because the body is isn't even taking in adequate levels of calcium to begin with. The proteins actually preserve what is there, and whenever calcium is introduced, it gets reabsorbed effectively in the intestines; leading to stronger and denser bones:studies to support this found here:http://www.jacn.org/content/24/suppl_6/526S.full.pdfhttp://www.jacn.org/content/20/suppl_5/403S.full.pdfhttp://www.jacn.org/content/20/suppl_5/403S.full.pdfsupported by:http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/low-carb-dieting.htmlWhat about vitamin C intake, better than eat carbs:http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/vitamin-c-deficiency.html"Carbohydrates compete with Vitamin C for access to the same metabolic pathways in the body"referenced by the article here: http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2005/pdf/2005-v20n03-p179.pdfThis is what 3 hours of studying gets you 🙂 In fact, if you use the internet correctly you can find a real study here:http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25This talks about the effects of protein intake on the kidney, causing no real damage to it.

Nice job! There are often so many different variables at play between two seemingly similar situations (eg. a ketogenic diet), that extrapolation from one to the other is nearly impossible. Kiefer preaches this constantly.I keep seeing the "ketones are made from protein" and "ketones are bad" statements all the time without referencing any context. I just shake my head.

[stumprrp]

Ketones are made from me demolishing a huge piece of rib eye basted in butter! 😀Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

[Kidfo]

Is anyone using Ketostix? or any other devices? I just think it would be nice to see how long it takes to enter back into Ketosis after Carb Nite. If I find that I am in Ketosis with 75g of carbs, can that me my new limit?

[Brandon D Christ]

Is anyone using Ketostix? or any other devices? I just think it would be nice to see how long it takes to enter back into Ketosis after Carb Nite. If I find that I am in Ketosis with 75g of carbs, can that me my new limit?

No.  Ketostix are useless because we are interested in ketogenesis not ketosis.  Watch this video of Kiefer where he explains why:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIgLeo9eQLQ

[Mikehr]

Also hydration effects those stupid ketostix so much if your properly hydrated and burning fat efficiently the damn things will barely show your in ketosis spend the extra $ on beef and eggs.

[Kidfo]

Is anyone using Ketostix? or any other devices? I just think it would be nice to see how long it takes to enter back into Ketosis after Carb Nite. If I find that I am in Ketosis with 75g of carbs, can that me my new limit?

No.  Ketostix are useless because we are interested in ketogenesis not ketosis.  Watch this video of Kiefer where he explains why:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIgLeo9eQLQ

Awesome, from the man himself. No arguments here :)/

[Author]

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