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The one part I need some clarity on without having to spend 20 hours researching and reading regards sugars, plain and simple. I know we've had a bit of discussion on fructose and organic sugars. I believe Kiefer replied with, "Endocrinologically and metabolically, there's no difference between HFCS and natural cane sugar, table sugar or honey. The vast majority of HFCS used for industrial food purposes is about 50% fructose, exactly the same as honey or organic evaporated cane sugar. Even macroscopic and observational studies show no difference. So if you're going crazy trying to avoid HFCS and consume natural sugars only, you're wasting valuable time and effort. Natural, as used in this thread, only means that the plants make the stuff that make you fat instead of the American Industrial machine.Post workout, all attempts should be made to raise insulin levels as high as possible. That requires non-fructose carbs, specifically, things that break down quickly into glucose."So if natural cane sugar, honey, and HFCS are all in the same boat metabolically and endocrinologically speaking, then why are pastries, doughnuts and the like recommended? Won't they predominantly be fructose-based, which wouldn't raise insulin, only a fat ass? Or does the high-glycemic white-wheat sort of flour give the insulin enough of a boost that outweighs the intake of any sort of fructose-based derivative. In all of that, what happens to the remaining fructose in CB land? Let's say you ingest a good 40g of fructose during a Carb back load, if you are in a proper CB like state - what happens to the 40g's? Damn, I have to do more reading up on fructose.After all, why wouldn't one simply supplement with Rilose with every meal, nearly pure glucose and it's cheap. I am taking around 200g of Rilose broken into two parts in my POW shakes with leucine and creatine. Thanks again.
Sugar in the frosting, sugar within the doughnut mix itself will cause the same or a quite similar response as fructose; from what I gather. I really need to sit down and spend several hours on the biological aspects of fructose and the various states of sugar.
So event though fructose doesn't help spike insulin and goes to refilling liver glycogen, it can still be included PWO. A donut might be 40g of carbs, with 15 g of sugar. Assuming the sugar is 50% fructose, only 7.5 g would be fructose. Someone with more knowledge can advise on this, but I think if you are avoiding carbs all day, liver glycogen stores will still be un-filled and can be filled PWO. That's my best analysis, take it for what it's worth.
Question for Kiefer/Naomi. What is the ideal carb blend in the PWO shake. I know in the book Kiefer says to use any of the four high GI carbs – Maltodextrin, Dextrose, Waixy Maize Starch, Waxy Rice:PAGE 88 CBL Book:
The basics work best: dextrose, maltodextrin and waxy maize orwazy rice. Functionally, there's not a big difference amongst them,only their chemical structure distinguishes them.
He goes on to explain a bit about them. But if i'm looking for the BEST blend, and the best type what would it be.In Micheal Colgans book '"Optimum Sports nutrition' (which i will admit is a little outdated, but is heavily backed by research) he says for a 75kg ahtlete - the PWO shake should consist of 200g of maltodextrin, 10g of glucose and 15g of fructose. the fructose is for liver replishment and he says that a combination of glucose and fructose help spike insulin (Reiser S et al. An insulinogenic effect of oral fructose in humans during post-prandial hyperglycemia. Am J Clin Nutr 1987).Once again, I no this is all very outdated - but Kiefer is there a perfect blend of carbs to spike insulin PWO (forgetting about amino acids etc for a moment)Second thing - Chromium. I have read that this boosts insulin efficiency. Chromium Picolinate. M. Colgan recommends 200-800mcg per day, particularly post workout. I know in your CBL you only talk about supplements that you are 99% certain work. But could you share yoru views on this?Thirdly (sorry for hi-jacking this thread guys!) = GLYCEROL MONOSTEARATE. I'm starting to see this on a few supplement sites. A brief explanation can be seen here:http://www.bulknutrients.com.au/carbohydrates/glycerol-monostearate-250gDoes this have a place in the CBL diet?Thanks in advance for your time.Fergie,
Seeking optimal health & performance for myself & others at:
Alex Fergus Coaching - www.AFCoaching.com.auSo event though fructose doesn't help spike insulin and goes to refilling liver glycogen, it can still be included PWO. A donut might be 40g of carbs, with 15 g of sugar. Assuming the sugar is 50% fructose, only 7.5 g would be fructose. Someone with more knowledge can advise on this, but I think if you are avoiding carbs all day, liver glycogen stores will still be un-filled and can be filled PWO. That's my best analysis, take it for what it's worth.
That's about right. Don't fret over every little fructose molecule. Just try to skew your food as much as you can towards insulin-spiking carbs. Refined grain products have a lot of pure starch in them -- that's why bagels (to name a donut-like thing without the sugar) would be a good choice. They are stupid-high on the glycemic index, ranking higher than white bread.The point of taking waxy maize, dextrose, etc instead of eating real food is that, when it starts to matter to that degree, you can get that fine-grained control over the content of your carbs.
Question for Kiefer/Naomi. What is the ideal carb blend in the PWO shake. I know in the book Kiefer says to use any of the four high GI carbs - Maltodextrin, Dextrose, Waixy Maize Starch, Waxy Rice:PAGE 88 CBL Book:
The basics work best: dextrose, maltodextrin and waxy maize orwazy rice. Functionally, there's not a big difference amongst them,only their chemical structure distinguishes them.
He goes on to explain a bit about them. But if i'm looking for the BEST blend, and the best type what would it be.
I'm tempted to tell you that there's no "perfect blend", because there's no such thing as an "essential carbohydrate", i.e. you're not going to be missing anything by never eating rice, for example.But this level of detail is beyond my current knowledge. I'll poke Kiefer if he doesn't notice this thread.As for the rest... why not start a new thread or two? 🙂
I'm curious about this too. This has been my primary frustration with CNS and CBL. It seems to me one would be best off not eating any table sugar, just doing glucose/dextrose with the PWO shake and eating only rice, potatoes, cassava, whatever IOT avoid fructose entirely since the muscles can't use it. Or is fructose not that big of a deal, hence the recommendations for pastries and other desserts (all of which have trans fat and other bullshit, I don't know what 'high end' super wonder bakeries you have access to, but all those places use trans fat because it improves texture and whatnot.) Also, can you use regular light corn syrup in your PWO shake? I think its primarily glucose…
There is an excellent synopsis created by Naomi in a different thread. If you search for “fructose” (there may be quite a few responses) in the box in the upper left, you should be able to find it and also learn some new things. Hope this helps. I'd provide the link, but I don't have it currently.
One excellent tasting thing I do is rice, butter, and dextrose. Great tasting dessert. No worries about fructose. Heat, stir, eat, ride the high carb/insulin spiking wave directly to your pillow.
Can corn syrup be used interchangeably as dextrose powder?
Corn syrup and corn sugar (dextrose) are definitely two different things. Dextrose you can count on to be all glucose (well, dextrose). What you get in “corn syrup” depends on the brand and formulation. Some bottles will tell you what they contain, but most won't. You might be getting a syrup made with maltodextrins and other oligosaccharides (which would be fine), and you might also be getting some quantity of fructose with it.I wouldn't worry about using corn syrup in terms of its fructose content, because it'll still be lower than table sugar or HFCS. I'm just saying -- if you want to be "sure", go for the dextrose.
Thanks a lot!
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