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http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=48361The above link is a recent post from Skip on the Intense Muscle forum. Perhaps Kiefer can schedule a debate with him once he's done with Aragon? 🙂I have to say that if I were to hire a 'coach,' it would almost certainly be Skip, so I do put a lot of weight in what he says. He consistently gets results with his clients, he offers a lot of knowledge in his forum, and that free video series he put out a year or two ago was pure gold.In any case, I'm currently doing CNS, but I have had some of these concerns regarding CBL, as opposed to something that's been proven effective like Skiploading (which is probably what I will transition into at some point). I guess time will tell, but this would sure make for an interesting debate if we could get these two in a room together.
he has some good points… Ive had success applying numerous DH principles to stuff ive already learned from established gurus like palumbo, starnes, aceto, bernardi, poloquin etc… and I train at night so my program is still “carb backloading” There is no perfect diet for everyone, but there is a lot of good stuff learned from DH that can be applied in different situations
Just noticed that if you try to look for his post, non-members will be denied access by the time they get to it. It's on the third page.
There's no way Skip debates anyone. I've been a client, and his methods work, and work well. Honestly, I think his method, CBL, Berkham's LeanGains (to a lesser extent), Shelby Starnes' method...they all have a place. However, not everyone sees it that way.
There's no way Skip debates anyone. I've been a client, and his methods work, and work well. Honestly, I think his method, CBL, Berkham's LeanGains (to a lesser extent), Shelby Starnes' method...they all have a place. However, not everyone sees it that way.
I know, I didn't actually think it was a possibility. Just thought it would be an interesting (and entertaining) debate. Kiefer's claim to legitimacy is his background in physics, whereas Skip's is based on real world experience and trial-and-error with clients. I think you're right though... but seeing the direction that this forum has gone in, with doughnut eating contests, ridiculous supplement regimes being recommended by 'experts' who cite muscle mags as resources, and guys touting that if you don't do two-a-days six days a week you're a pussy, I think the perception of DH largely catering to skinny fat noobs who want an excuse to devour pizza three nights a week will continue. I know I've been pretty critical of this forum of late, but it's obviously not all bad, or I wouldn't be here. I like Kiefer, I like a lot of his ideas, and I do think there are some knowledgeable people in here (albeit far fewer than there are on a forum like Intense Muscle). I would just like to see him and his DH pals reign things in a bit, as I think it's reasonable to have high expectations of someone asking for roughly $80 for an ebook.As an aside, Ibob, you're doing a hell of a job. Lots of good info, and you handled that rude little bastard the other day far better than I ever would.
I agree on all counts. I really like the CBL protocol, and I follow several athletes who use it with great success. It's the curse of the successful forum to have crazy posting members who espouse "knowledge", yet have little to no practical experience. Couple that with quasi-sycophantic followers, and you have a recipe for disaster. As an aside that's pertinent to your lament-I joined AnabolicMinds in 2002, and back then it was a gold mine for training, nutrition & supplement knowledge. Now? It's log after log of PH garbage, and 18 year old kids telling people what AAS cycles to run. Awful.
Thanks for the compliment Josh! I really appreciate that.Just clarify, Kiefer has worked with people and his recommendations are based on a mix of real world experience and scientific literature.I do disagree with you on the price. I think it's more than fair. The amount of research that went into it is more than a lot of college textbooks, which often run more than $100.
I also wanna add Kiefers CBL and Carb Nite are marketed towards people who want to eat the foods they love and stay lean at the same time, where as skips protocol doesn't really care if your happy or enjoying food because its meant to get you to extremely low levels of BF.The versions of Carb Nite and CBL that Kiefer uses with his athletes is a lot different than what normal people would eat, ie alot of his Carb Nite athletes still have PWO carbs and athletes doing either CBL or CN as a kiefer as a coach also have much cleaner refeeds, as seen by the journey to stage series on the page now.
I also wanna add Kiefers CBL and Carb Nite are marketed towards people who want to eat the foods they love and stay lean at the same time, where as skips protocol doesn't really care if your happy or enjoying food because its meant to get you to extremely low levels of BF.The versions of Carb Nite and CBL that Kiefer uses with his athletes is a lot different than what normal people would eat, ie alot of his Carb Nite athletes still have PWO carbs and athletes doing either CBL or CN as a kiefer as a coach also have much cleaner refeeds, as seen by the journey to stage series on the page now.
True...mostly. Skip can/does work with non-competitors (bodybuilding), and his method really isn't difficult to incorporate. However, high GI carbs (aside from PWO) are a no-go except on a Skipload. For me, a little PWO sugary treat was enough to get me through 6 days.
I do disagree with you on the price. I think it's more than fair. The amount of research that went into it is more than a lot of college textbooks, which often run more than $100.
We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I respect Kiefer, and appreciate the research that went into it, but I will not pay that much for an ebook. I just can't....for the record though, I do also think the price of textbooks is borderline criminal 🙂
Anyone that can put skipload into point form or simple text would be greatly appreciated, thT interview with him is just to damn long
I also wanna add Kiefers CBL and Carb Nite are marketed towards people who want to eat the foods they love and stay lean at the same time, where as skips protocol doesn't really care if your happy or enjoying food because its meant to get you to extremely low levels of BF.The versions of Carb Nite and CBL that Kiefer uses with his athletes is a lot different than what normal people would eat, ie alot of his Carb Nite athletes still have PWO carbs and athletes doing either CBL or CN as a kiefer as a coach also have much cleaner refeeds, as seen by the journey to stage series on the page now.
I think CBL as written works really well for powerlifters, strength athletes, and off season bodybuilders. I think the only time when junk food is limited is when physique athletes get ready for stage, but it obviously isn't super strict or else Alex would have never gone on that infamous tour of San Fran's bakeries a few weeks out from her contest. But I am sure it varies between individuals.People often forget that the compliance rate is part of a good diet. For CBL I'd say the compliance is damn good because even if you are unable to put desserts and non-clean carbs in your diet regularly, you can still consume them fairly often and it won't impede progress. While this certainly can be done on other diets as well, I think Kiefer is more realistic than others on this topic.
I think you're right though... but seeing the direction that this forum has gone in, with doughnut eating contests, ridiculous supplement regimes being recommended by 'experts' who cite muscle mags as resources, and guys touting that if you don't do two-a-days six days a week you're a pussy, I think the perception of DH largely catering to skinny fat noobs who want an excuse to devour pizza three nights a week will continue.
Surprise surprise, DH attracts people who like their junk food, than you very much, and do not espouse your idea that moderation is the mother of all virtues. Where did you see anyone calling anybody a pussy on these forums? People are very supportive, and the insults we hurl at each other are for comedic effect/encouragement. I, like some others here, absolutely despise moderation, and having protocols that allow us to let the crazy out is very liberating, so how is that bad?Again, where did you see anyone suggesting that supplements and shakes are a valid replacement for hard work?I agree it's good to stay critical in regards to any diet and I used to be skeptical due to CBL's marketting, but that doesn't mean the base product is not solid gold. And about the doughnut contest thing, come on, you don't see me ragging on people's tendency to count, calculate and program everything, so why would it annoy you that badly? About skiploading, I hardly see how radically different it is from CN, with the exception that he insists on lower fat carb sources and says you can have clean carbs during the week. To me that is almost like UD 2.0, lower calorie days and depletion followed by a large carb/insulin spike. Feel free to correct me though.Like Mike says, Kiefer's protocols are way tighter for people who are competing. I know I'd personally keep my CN lower fat if I had some kind of timeline to make a certain weight, and the whole "junk" aspect of DH is for enjoyment/compliance purposes, nobody is saying that adding a shit ton of fat to your CN or backload will give you better results, only that it will make you less hungry the next day or limit/increase your carb count.
I also wanna add Kiefers CBL and Carb Nite are marketed towards people who want to eat the foods they love and stay lean at the same time, where as skips protocol doesn't really care if your happy or enjoying food because its meant to get you to extremely low levels of BF.The versions of Carb Nite and CBL that Kiefer uses with his athletes is a lot different than what normal people would eat, ie alot of his Carb Nite athletes still have PWO carbs and athletes doing either CBL or CN as a kiefer as a coach also have much cleaner refeeds, as seen by the journey to stage series on the page now.
I think CBL as written works really well for powerlifters, strength athletes, and off season bodybuilders. I think the only time when junk food is limited is when physique athletes get ready for stage, but it obviously isn't super strict or else Alex would have never gone on that infamous tour of San Fran's bakeries a few weeks out from her contest. But I am sure it varies between individuals.People often forget that the compliance rate is part of a good diet. For CBL I'd say the compliance is damn good because even if you are unable to put desserts and non-clean carbs in your diet regularly, you can still consume them fairly often and it won't impede progress. While this certainly can be done on other diets as well, I think Kiefer is more realistic than others on this topic.
Good point IBOB once again it comes down to everyone is different some can eat the junk food and others can't. Also we have said it many times before that I CBL/CN aren't better at getting results that the traditional bb diets they are equally as good but more enjoyable in the process, that my opinion at least.
Surprise surprise, DH attracts people who like their junk food, than you very much, and do not espouse your idea that moderation is the mother of all virtues. Where did you see anyone calling anybody a pussy on these forums? People are very supportive, and the insults we hurl at each other are for comedic effect/encouragement. I, like some others here, absolutely despise moderation, and having protocols that allow us to let the crazy out is very liberating, so how is that bad?Again, where did you see anyone suggesting that supplements and shakes are a valid replacement for hard work?I agree it's good to stay critical in regards to any diet and I used to be skeptical due to CBL's marketting, but that doesn't mean the base product is not solid gold. And about the doughnut contest thing, come on, you don't see me ragging on people's tendency to count, calculate and program everything, so why would it annoy you that badly? About skiploading, I hardly see how radically different it is from CN, with the exception that he insists on lower fat carb sources and says you can have clean carbs during the week. To me that is almost like UD 2.0, lower calorie days and depletion followed by a large carb/insulin spike. Feel free to correct me though.Like Mike says, Kiefer's protocols are way tighter for people who are competing. I know I'd personally keep my CN lower fat if I had some kind of timeline to make a certain weight, and the whole "junk" aspect of DH is for enjoyment/compliance purposes, nobody is saying that adding a shit ton of fat to your CN or backload will give you better results, only that it will make you less hungry the next day or limit/increase your carb count.
I agree that this is a rather supportive forum, I couldn't care less about the doughnut eating contest, and in no way did I say (or imply) that people believed supplements/shakes were a replacement for hard work (or even that people weren't busting their asses to achieve their goals). My point was that this forum leaves outsiders to question the validity of CBL (or CN), or if it's appropriate for the more advanced/serious lifter, because you have a lot of relative noobs spouting speculative advice, and no real authoritative presence from the DH team.When you're charging $80 for an e-book, I would think you'd want to make every effort to ensure misinformation wasn't being passed on, particularly on your own forums. There is so much speculation on here, by the 'experts' Kiefer assured wouldn't exist on the DH forums, and my point is simply that this forum would greatly benefit from having the presence of some true experts (i.e., Kiefer or someone on his 'team') to set things straight.And where the hell did I claim that 'moderation was the mother of all virtues'...? Fuck that. I'll restate this: I have a lot of respect for Kiefer, I love CN, and I very well might progress to CBL at some point (though Skiploading - which is quite different from UDL 2.0, as Skip does believe in a moderate amount of carbs through the week, and doesn't think ketosis is necessary for most - is also a possibility*).*I want to note that I'm not an expert, and if you want to know the in's and out's of Skiploading, you should really get it from the horse's mouth. Join the Intense Muscle forum (intensemuscle.com), read his posts, and watch the Longevity series, particularly Chapters 11-13, which is available on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/user/TEAMSKIP). I'm in no way associated with Skip, and I know he (understandably) hates when he's misrepresented.
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