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Surprise surprise, DH attracts people who like their junk food, than you very much, and do not espouse your idea that moderation is the mother of all virtues. Where did you see anyone calling anybody a pussy on these forums? People are very supportive, and the insults we hurl at each other are for comedic effect/encouragement. I, like some others here, absolutely despise moderation, and having protocols that allow us to let the crazy out is very liberating, so how is that bad?Again, where did you see anyone suggesting that supplements and shakes are a valid replacement for hard work?I agree it's good to stay critical in regards to any diet and I used to be skeptical due to CBL's marketting, but that doesn't mean the base product is not solid gold. And about the doughnut contest thing, come on, you don't see me ragging on people's tendency to count, calculate and program everything, so why would it annoy you that badly? About skiploading, I hardly see how radically different it is from CN, with the exception that he insists on lower fat carb sources and says you can have clean carbs during the week. To me that is almost like UD 2.0, lower calorie days and depletion followed by a large carb/insulin spike. Feel free to correct me though.Like Mike says, Kiefer's protocols are way tighter for people who are competing. I know I'd personally keep my CN lower fat if I had some kind of timeline to make a certain weight, and the whole "junk" aspect of DH is for enjoyment/compliance purposes, nobody is saying that adding a shit ton of fat to your CN or backload will give you better results, only that it will make you less hungry the next day or limit/increase your carb count.
I agree that this is a rather supportive forum, I couldn't care less about the doughnut eating contest, and in no way did I say (or imply) that people believed supplements/shakes were a replacement for hard work (or even that people weren't busting their asses to achieve their goals). My point was that this forum leaves outsiders to question the validity of CBL (or CN), or if it's appropriate for the more advanced/serious lifter, because you have a lot of relative noobs spouting speculative advice, and no real authoritative presence from the DH team.When you're charging $80 for an e-book, I would think you'd want to make every effort to ensure misinformation wasn't being passed on, particularly on your own forums. There is so much speculation on here, by the 'experts' Kiefer assured wouldn't exist on the DH forums, and my point is simply that this forum would greatly benefit from having the presence of some true experts (i.e., Kiefer or someone on his 'team') to set things straight.And where the hell did I claim that 'moderation was the mother of all virtues'...? Fuck that. I'll restate this: I have a lot of respect for Kiefer, I love CN, and I very well might progress to CBL at some point (though Skiploading - which is quite different from UDL 2.0, as Skip does believe in a moderate amount of carbs through the week, and doesn't think ketosis is necessary for most - is also a possibility*).*I want to note that I'm not an expert, and if you want to know the in's and out's of Skiploading, you should really get it from the horse's mouth. Join the Intense Muscle forum (intensemuscle.com), read his posts, and watch the Longevity series, particularly Chapters 11-13, which is available on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/user/TEAMSKIP). I'm in no way associated with Skip, and I know he (understandably) hates when he's misrepresented.
Ahh gotcha. For a moment I thought you were ragging on the fact that this place attracts weirdos who want to have their cake and eat it too. I was just a bit puzzled cause to me there are way bigger problems on this forum than the food fetish thing. From an outside perception standpoint, I totally see where you are coming from.Heck, for the longest time I didn't even try the protocols just because I thought they sounded too good to be true and the marketting was over-the-top. I also think this place needs a bit more support from Kiefer or some kind of expert team, but for the time being I'm content just taking the info I need when it comes out and hanging out.You just confirmed what I said about skiploading dude. UD 2.0 does not really insist that you go into ketosis either, it's more about crazy cal restriction for 4 days, a 2 day refeed and the other day is kind of adjusted depending on your goals. To me, it just sounds like skip condenses the refeed in one day and insists that you go really bananas on the carbs, which makes sense too, then keep shit tight for 6 days afterwards, though not starving like Lyle recommends you do. I will read all of this stuff at work cause I am intrigued, but so far that's my understanding. I dropped UD 2.0 cause it is based around depletion workout and starving which interfered with my performance goals. I've read some skiploading logs and still don't see how it is anything more than my basic understanding of it, but I obviously have more reading to do.I'm intrigued, though.
I think everyone is skeptical about CBL when they first hear about it. I know I was.
I'm still skeptical about CNS, even after following it months and seeing results. It doesn't make sense to me.
two a days every day or you are a pussy! haha… yeah if you don't like the site go elsewhere all this thread did was promote skip really… There are plenty of guru's who aren't fans of cbl
two a days every day or you are a pussy! haha... yeah if you don't like the site go elsewhere all this thread did was promote skip really... There are plenty of guru's who aren't fans of cbl
Change of heart since your first response? I do like the site, and my intention wasn't to promote Skip. I think he does pretty well for himself on his own, and he certainly doesn't need my help. I thought he was relevant to the discussion, and many would appreciate that video series (at least the ones involving training and nutrition - obviously the stuff related to competing won't apply to many of us).I agree with those who say to stick with a limited number of 'gurus' to guide your philosophy (i.e., or you'll just have too much contradictory info), but you can't really make an informed decision on which guru's work best for you without reading up on a variety of them first. I don't see the harm in sharing this, though I do apologize if some consider this a form of trolling. Not my intent at all.
Been reading up on the skiploading forums. My connection is all kinds of fucked up again so I couldn't watch the vids.Again, I don't see a ton of difference with doing a longer low-fat CN with tons of carbs. He does not prescribe low-carb during the week, but some people on the forums seem to keep their carbs low anyways. I had a slightly sour response cause I thought you were bashing this place at first, but skiploading is definitely interesting. I like the fact he says the leaner you get, the more insane your refeed has to be. Also, he insists on doing it on a rest day. I'll be doing just that on my next CN.
You just confirmed what I said about skiploading dude. UD 2.0 does not really insist that you go into ketosis either, it's more about crazy cal restriction for 4 days, a 2 day refeed and the other day is kind of adjusted depending on your goals. To me, it just sounds like skip condenses the refeed in one day and insists that you go really bananas on the carbs, which makes sense too, then keep shit tight for 6 days afterwards, though not starving like Lyle recommends you do. I will read all of this stuff at work cause I am intrigued, but so far that's my understanding. I dropped UD 2.0 cause it is based around depletion workout and starving which interfered with my performance goals. I've read some skiploading logs and still don't see how it is anything more than my basic understanding of it, but I obviously have more reading to do.I'm intrigued, though.
I apologize man, it's been a while since I've looked at UD 2.0. I've done it in the past, but it's been a few years (and like you, I thought it was fucking miserable).My point was that Skip doesn't require the same level of depletion, so it's not nearly as miserable an experience. During the week, you do ingest some carbs, but they're all ingested at strategic times (i.e., around workouts).Anyways, I hope you understand why I don't want to lay it all out on here. I'm not an expert, and I don't want to misrepresent him, nor do I want to seem like a Skip promoter. I just think the guys got a lot of knowledge, and even if you don't agree with him entirely, you can probably get some good stuff out of those videos.
haha no change of heart… I thought the two a day thing might be aimed at me thus discrediting my knowledge
I know exactly who it is aimed at and it isn't anyone on this thread. I also noticed other references as well. I have to say, I got a kick out of them!
I must be getting paranoid, I swear, it must be the CN diet and overtraining.Yesterday I expected a massive shitstorm at work for some liberties I took. I was getting ready to react, planning what I'd say and do, anticipating every possible scenario. Walked in at work and everyone was all smiles, like nothing happened, yet I was looking over my shoulder for a couple minutes hahaha.Back to skiploading, I disagree about having some carbs during the week being less miserable. Having anything under 600 g of carbs for me is a miserable experience, as I typically wake up hungry and craving them the next morning. It may be that I perform well on ULC and that I have a very large appetite, but eating around 2300 cals of a mixed diet makes me feel like complete and utter shit, and I have to exercise serious self control not to go off track. Guess it all comes down to doing what works for you, but I'm definitely gonna try to incorporate some of his principles on my next CN.
I must be getting paranoid, I swear, it must be the CN diet and overtraining.Yesterday I expected a massive shitstorm at work for some liberties I took. I was getting ready to react, planning what I'd say and do, anticipating every possible scenario. Walked in at work and everyone was all smiles, like nothing happened, yet I was looking over my shoulder for a couple minutes hahaha.Back to skiploading, I disagree about having some carbs during the week being less miserable. Having anything under 600 g of carbs for me is a miserable experience, as I typically wake up hungry and craving them the next morning. It may be that I perform well on ULC and that I have a very large appetite, but eating around 2300 cals of a mixed diet makes me feel like complete and utter shit, and I have to exercise serious self control not to go off track. Guess it all comes down to doing what works for you, but I'm definitely gonna try to incorporate some of his principles on my next CN.
That's fair, re: having some carbs. I can see that. When I did UD2, I just remember my workouts being shit. And I hated that goddamn depletion workout. It just didn't work for me.Let me know how it works out on the CN!(And ibob's right, for the record. I wasn't referring to either one of you.)
I think it would be interesting to get Skip and Keifer in a room together. My guess is they would agree on more than we think, just like when Keifer got pissed off with Robb Wolf because they agreed too much LOL. In any case, of course Skip or Keifer is going to espouse their own methods over those of others, they are in a pretty competitive field. As Keifer would say “I spent two years writing a book, of course I am going to market it.” If you say “well this guy might have a good idea here” then you risk losing a chunk of your client base, and that isn't great for business. I just know that this forum is a lot like other forums. It has knowledgeable people, dumbasses, jerks, flamboyant and outspoken guys and girls, blunt people, flowery people, athletes, models, etc etc. At the end of the day, I know that it feels to me a lot like a family, and the people here are just as motivating to me as the diet and training. Of course I am not saying you are opposing any of that, Josh! Just making a statement that I really do love the people of this forum, because we are a family. A weird, fucked up, indulgent, crazy, wonderful family. I mean, hell, I never would have had the balls to hit deadlift like I do every session if it weren't for Stiff. And Big Tex is always there to answer questions. MrJiggy and Trevor are my nerd posse. iBob reminds me that I need to stop overthinking shit. You get the idea.I do agree that the DH team needs to be a little more hands on, however. And we do have some people giving out advice who probably need to do a little more looking around first. Hopefully they can tighten the reigns just slightly in the future, but remember that Keifer is really just starting to build this business up. Give it a little while.
The thing is, depending on levels of leanness, Skip's protocol will very much resemble the CNS. I can speak to it because he had me doing it; although I wasn't as low as <30g during the ULC phase, I did get down around 50. Then, on the 7th day I Skiploaded, is very much like CN. There are MANY similarities, but I doubt either would admit it.
The thing is, depending on levels of leanness, Skip's protocol will very much resemble the CNS. I can speak to it because he had me doing it; although I wasn't as low as <30g during the ULC phase, I did get down around 50. Then, on the 7th day I Skiploaded, is very much like CN. There are MANY similarities, but I doubt either would admit it.
I agree, the only blaring difference is the skipload is RECCOMENDED in the morning and on an off day. And he also skip loads in the off season just for shorter time frames usually
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