So what’s my body using during steady pace cardio?

[Punmaster]

Long distance runners seem to always be huge fans of slow digesting carbs/stocking up on carbs etc.Now I have pretty high % BF (20-25%). During my 10 day readjustement period cardio was almost impossible (around day 3-4) but around day 7+ I was doing steady state cardio at 180 bpm for half an hour just fine again. At 90% MHR (I'm 18), normally your body is burning a higher amount of carbs for energy. My question is, for people on <30g carbs, is the only source of energy being burned fat? If so why are long distance runners such big fans of carbs? Wouldn't stocking up on fat be more beneficial? Would there be any long term disadvantages to working out in carb depleted state assuming the body has adapted to using fat as energy? Thanks.

[TCB]

My question is, for people on <30g carbs, is the only source of energy being burned fat?

Still mostly glycogen. That's why endurance athletes always look emaciated. Their muscle gets eaten away to fuel their body. (Other things can be converted to glycogen also, like certain fats (odd number chain I think)

If so why are long distance runners such big fans of carbs?

Because most don't understand how the body works, and they just go with what the generic recommendations that have always been used are. (Like how figure competitors generally prepare for a show by doing tons of cardio, low fat, calorie restriction, etc.. Despite the fact that it's been shown diets like CBL/CNS work great for this goal)

Wouldn't stocking up on fat be more beneficial?

Depends. In general, it's better to eat more fat because it CAN trigger more fat burning. But, using fat as a fuel source isn't very efficient, it doesn't have a big bang for the buck, like glucose/glycogen.

Would there be any long term disadvantages to working out in carb depleted state assuming the body has adapted to using fat as energy? Thanks.

Again. Depends. This time upon your definition of working out-If it's always in the glycolitic pathway, you're likely going to get some damage occurring because of constant stress on the body, etc. If it's something else, like lifting weights, you can be fine.Recently this is also being challenged by people like Dr. Perlmutter who say that, basically, over time, you can adapt to using fat and not need glycogen at all, even for glycolitic activities. But, a lot of people (and smart ones) are basically saying they just don't buy into that at all.

[Brandon D Christ]

My question is, for people on <30g carbs, is the only source of energy being burned fat?

Still mostly glycogen. That's why endurance athletes always look emaciated. Their muscle gets eaten away to fuel their body. (Other things can be converted to glycogen also, like certain fats (odd number chain I think)

If so why are long distance runners such big fans of carbs?

Because most don't understand how the body works, and they just go with what the generic recommendations that have always been used are. (Like how figure competitors generally prepare for a show by doing tons of cardio, low fat, calorie restriction, etc.. Despite the fact that it's been shown diets like CBL/CNS work great for this goal)

Wouldn't stocking up on fat be more beneficial?

Depends. In general, it's better to eat more fat because it CAN trigger more fat burning. But, using fat as a fuel source isn't very efficient, it doesn't have a big bang for the buck, like glucose/glycogen.

Would there be any long term disadvantages to working out in carb depleted state assuming the body has adapted to using fat as energy? Thanks.

Again. Depends. This time upon your definition of working out-If it's always in the glycolitic pathway, you're likely going to get some damage occurring because of constant stress on the body, etc. If it's something else, like lifting weights, you can be fine.Recently this is also being challenged by people like Dr. Perlmutter who say that, basically, over time, you can adapt to using fat and not need glycogen at all, even for glycolitic activities. But, a lot of people (and smart ones) are basically saying they just don't buy into that at all.

This is wrong.  Distance running performance will go down without carbs.  That is why Kiefer has his runner carb up for a day and a half before their race.  While endurance running is not glycolytic, the muscles still use glycogen to a large extentTraining without carbs will help the body use less glycogen while running and cause a beneficial hormonal response, but the runner will not perform well in training.Kiefer said when first used Carb Nite, the runner that was using felt aweful during training.  However since she was so used to running while low carb, when she finally did carb up before the raceme she felt incredible and her performance skyrocketed. 

[Punmaster]

My question is, for people on <30g carbs, is the only source of energy being burned fat?

Still mostly glycogen. That's why endurance athletes always look emaciated. Their muscle gets eaten away to fuel their body. (Other things can be converted to glycogen also, like certain fats (odd number chain I think)

If so why are long distance runners such big fans of carbs?

Because most don't understand how the body works, and they just go with what the generic recommendations that have always been used are. (Like how figure competitors generally prepare for a show by doing tons of cardio, low fat, calorie restriction, etc.. Despite the fact that it's been shown diets like CBL/CNS work great for this goal)

Wouldn't stocking up on fat be more beneficial?

Depends. In general, it's better to eat more fat because it CAN trigger more fat burning. But, using fat as a fuel source isn't very efficient, it doesn't have a big bang for the buck, like glucose/glycogen.

Would there be any long term disadvantages to working out in carb depleted state assuming the body has adapted to using fat as energy? Thanks.

Again. Depends. This time upon your definition of working out-If it's always in the glycolitic pathway, you're likely going to get some damage occurring because of constant stress on the body, etc. If it's something else, like lifting weights, you can be fine.Recently this is also being challenged by people like Dr. Perlmutter who say that, basically, over time, you can adapt to using fat and not need glycogen at all, even for glycolitic activities. But, a lot of people (and smart ones) are basically saying they just don't buy into that at all.

This is wrong.  Distance running performance will go down without carbs.  That is why Kiefer has his runner carb up for a day and a half before their race.  While endurance running is not glycolytic, the muscles still use glycogen to a large extentTraining without carbs will help the body use less glycogen while running and cause a beneficial hormonal response, but the runner will not perform well in training.Kiefer said when first used Carb Nite, the runner that was using felt aweful during training.  However since she was so used to running while low carb, when she finally did carb up before the raceme she felt incredible and her performance skyrocketed.

Hey I appreciate the quick response.So right now I'm on carb nite because I'm trying to cut my BF%. Training feels pretty good. My question is this: considering my training routine, will I suffer some kind of metabolic/hormonal damage by limiting my refeed to once per week?This is my routine:Fitness level: moderate - low-I will do steady pace cardio for 25 minutes in the beginning(5 min warm up, 20 minutes at 180 BPM according to my chest HRM which is a pace of 8 minutes per mile exactly).-I then do approximately 45-60 minutes of weight lifting. Normal split, 1-2 muscles/day. I always do some sort of 5x5 for strength (Bench, squat or deadlift) then I will follow with drop set/ follow up with general hypertrophy rep ranges/sets. Prob around 12-16 sets (3-4 exercises per muscle).6 TIMES A WEEK (WEDNESDAY OFF BECAUSE I HAVE SOCCER PRACTICE)All in about 90 minutes in the gym?Thanks again

[Brandon D Christ]

My question is, for people on <30g carbs, is the only source of energy being burned fat?

Still mostly glycogen. That's why endurance athletes always look emaciated. Their muscle gets eaten away to fuel their body. (Other things can be converted to glycogen also, like certain fats (odd number chain I think)

If so why are long distance runners such big fans of carbs?

Because most don't understand how the body works, and they just go with what the generic recommendations that have always been used are. (Like how figure competitors generally prepare for a show by doing tons of cardio, low fat, calorie restriction, etc.. Despite the fact that it's been shown diets like CBL/CNS work great for this goal)

Wouldn't stocking up on fat be more beneficial?

Depends. In general, it's better to eat more fat because it CAN trigger more fat burning. But, using fat as a fuel source isn't very efficient, it doesn't have a big bang for the buck, like glucose/glycogen.

Would there be any long term disadvantages to working out in carb depleted state assuming the body has adapted to using fat as energy? Thanks.

Again. Depends. This time upon your definition of working out-If it's always in the glycolitic pathway, you're likely going to get some damage occurring because of constant stress on the body, etc. If it's something else, like lifting weights, you can be fine.Recently this is also being challenged by people like Dr. Perlmutter who say that, basically, over time, you can adapt to using fat and not need glycogen at all, even for glycolitic activities. But, a lot of people (and smart ones) are basically saying they just don't buy into that at all.

This is wrong.  Distance running performance will go down without carbs.  That is why Kiefer has his runner carb up for a day and a half before their race.  While endurance running is not glycolytic, the muscles still use glycogen to a large extentTraining without carbs will help the body use less glycogen while running and cause a beneficial hormonal response, but the runner will not perform well in training.Kiefer said when first used Carb Nite, the runner that was using felt aweful during training.  However since she was so used to running while low carb, when she finally did carb up before the raceme she felt incredible and her performance skyrocketed.

Hey I appreciate the quick response.So right now I'm on carb nite because I'm trying to cut my BF%. Training feels pretty good. My question is this: considering my training routine, will I suffer some kind of metabolic/hormonal damage by limiting my refeed to once per week?This is my routine:Fitness level: moderate - low-I will do steady pace cardio for 25 minutes in the beginning(5 min warm up, 20 minutes at 180 BPM according to my chest HRM which is a pace of 8 minutes per mile exactly).-I then do approximately 45-60 minutes of weight lifting. Normal split, 1-2 muscles/day. I always do some sort of 5x5 for strength (Bench, squat or deadlift) then I will follow with drop set/ follow up with general hypertrophy rep ranges/sets. Prob around 12-16 sets (3-4 exercises per muscle).6 TIMES A WEEK (WEDNESDAY OFF BECAUSE I HAVE SOCCER PRACTICE)All in about 90 minutes in the gym?Thanks again

You are strength training and running 6 times a week and you play soccer on top of that?  That is a lot of work on Carb Nite even for someone like myself who has a high work capacity.  I would cut your strength training down to three days a week and cut your assistance work to one exercise per muscle group.  You shouldn't be lifting for any more than 45 minutes when your on Carb Nite.Now the steady state cardio:  Why are you doing it?  I would eliminate it entirely, but if you need to do that for soccer, I would recommend 1 or 2 runs a week and a HIIT session the day after your CN and that should give you all the conditioning you need.  You can go on brisk walks if you want to do more.  Otherwise you are going to get stressed out and your strength/performance levels will plummet.

[Punmaster]

Thanks for the recommendations. Theres 2 main reasons why I keep the steady pace cardio despite the lack of many benefits.1) the biggest is a psychological/emotional scar from when I was really obese. I can't lift weights unless I do my 25 minutes of cardio because I don't feel like its a complete workout. The weight lifting is like the treat if I do my painful 25 minutes if that makes any sense to you.2)Somehow its really easy for me to eat above maintenance even with intermittent fasting (1 veg/protein snack at 3 + 1 big meal at night). The cardio helps me psychologically feel like I'm in the safe zone calorie deficit wise lol (yes I do believe in caloric deficit despite the bashing). It eases my mind I guess.Again, thanks a lot!

[Tracy Jarchow]

The unrivaled expert on cardio and conditioning is Joel Jamison.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8di4AUH-_pwhttp://www.youtube.com/user/8WOTV?feature=watch

[Brandon D Christ]

Thanks for the recommendations. Theres 2 main reasons why I keep the steady pace cardio despite the lack of many benefits.1) the biggest is a psychological/emotional scar from when I was really obese. I can't lift weights unless I do my 25 minutes of cardio because I don't feel like its a complete workout. The weight lifting is like the treat if I do my painful 25 minutes if that makes any sense to you.2)Somehow its really easy for me to eat above maintenance even with intermittent fasting (1 veg/protein snack at 3 + 1 big meal at night). The cardio helps me psychologically feel like I'm in the safe zone calorie deficit wise lol (yes I do believe in caloric deficit despite the bashing). It eases my mind I guess.Again, thanks a lot!

You need to get rid of these fears.  Hardly anyone here counts calories and it is really difficult to determine someone's metabolic rate because it varies so much.  I doubt you are even burning many calories when your running because you do it so much.  Your body probably is extremely efficient at it at this point.I personally have lost 40 lbs before and I did zero cardio whatsoever.  Just trust the diet, you will be much happier.  If you enjoy running that is a different story, but it doesn't sound like you do. 

[TCB]

This is wrong.  Distance running performance will go down without carbs.  That is why Kiefer has his runner carb up for a day and a half before their race.  While endurance running is not glycolytic, the muscles still use glycogen to a large extentTraining without carbs will help the body use less glycogen while running and cause a beneficial hormonal response, but the runner will not perform well in training.Kiefer said when first used Carb Nite, the runner that was using felt aweful during training.  However since she was so used to running while low carb, when she finally did carb up before the raceme she felt incredible and her performance skyrocketed.

We're actually saying the same thing..I was thinking of it as/referring to carbs DURING the endurance event. Specifically thinking of how Kiefer has people go ULC for a week-ish, then carb up for 1-2 days pre race, then only consume water during the race. We're saying the same things, I just made an assumption that I should've clarified! Doh.  :-[EDIT:And thinking about it.. I bet Kiefer's endurance "protocol" would probably pair well with the style of training that people like Brian Mackenzie use for endurance events, which involve very few long "practices" but a lot of conditioning and strength work.And a big +1 to the fact that you're (OP) doing way too much activity! Isn't necessary at all

[Punmaster]

Thanks a lot for the feedback. I'd just like to clarify that I didn't increase my activity level since carb nite to boost its effectiveness. I simply maintained what I was doing before starting this protocol (I've always worked out from 5:30 to 7:00 am everyday). So wouldn't decreasing my regular activity level decrease my metabolic rate (Since my body is used to this level of output)? I was mostly worried about that guy who had to go under test replacement therapy because he trained carb depleted too long (in this section of the forums).Thanks

[Tracy Jarchow]

Unfortunately, virtually all endurance exercises have multiple negative effects. It can down regulate metabolism, it can down regulate several key hormones including testosterone, it can down regulate your muscles ability to uptake glycogen, it can catabolizes muscle tissue, it can increase your BF% and probably several more I can't think of right now. Here is a great picture that might visually make the point.

[Punmaster]

Unfortunately, virtually all endurance exercises have multiple negative effects. It can down regulate metabolism, it can down regulate several key hormones including testosterone, it can down regulate your muscles ability to uptake glycogen, it can catabolizes muscle tissue, it can increase your BF% and probably several more I can't think of right now. Here is a great picture that might visually make the point.

Ok I've taken in your feedback. So would it be better( I know not optimal) if I replaced my morning run with 8 HIT intervals of 30 sec max speed sprinting 2 min in between for 20 min total?Thanks

[Tracy Jarchow]

I am far from an expert but from what I understand running is not bad in and of itself but doing it in a HIIT style will cause many good things to happen to your body as opposed to steady state running. Here is Kiefer's suggestion as a generic starting point.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZev9g_N5Cohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acBWvYRxgYg

[Brandon D Christ]

Unfortunately, virtually all endurance exercises have multiple negative effects. It can down regulate metabolism, it can down regulate several key hormones including testosterone, it can down regulate your muscles ability to uptake glycogen, it can catabolizes muscle tissue, it can increase your BF% and probably several more I can't think of right now. Here is a great picture that might visually make the point.

Ok I've taken in your feedback. So would it be better( I know not optimal) if I replaced my morning run with 8 HIT intervals of 30 sec max speed sprinting 2 min in between for 20 min total?Thanks

Thats fine, but only do that the day after your Carb Nite and maybe the day after that.  Anything more is unnecessary as two HIIT session will deplete your glycogen easily.  If you eliminate the rest of your cardio you could probably handle more volume in your strength training.

[CCT]

I do some long distance swim/run training for the simple purpose of being a better endurance athlete so I can compete, however I only do long distance once per week, with two HIT sessions of 30 seconds on 1 minute off for 8 rounds.  This has worked very well, so if yo are concerned abuot being able to not only sprint HIT style, but also o for longer periods of time (since youre a soccer player) this method might work for you. 

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