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@gremlin1267For the eggs and cheese thing:http://www.ajcn.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf+htmlAlso see:http://dangerouslyhardcore.com/forum/index.php?topic=3288.msg34262#msg34262
Yeah, I had found that article a while back and posted it here somewhere's. I love my eggs, but I'll give them up for a while until I hit the right numbers. I thought I would be okay with just eggs and bacon, but still to much insulin response.
No you posted it in t nation.
so some advices that work greatly for me- still hitting PRs every now and then (advanced strength in all lifts, pretty close to elite in deadlift and chinups)- current bodyfat 9-10%, just gained some fat in my holidays- I combine leangains and CBL for my cut, which means I fast for 14-16hours.- I lift only 3 days per week- I refeed / backload on every training day (3 times a week) and going for +10%/+20% above maintenanceexample: 2500kcal Maintenance level, eat 2750-3000 kcal- before breaking the fast, I like brisk walking for half an hour- I´m doing LISS Cardio on the bike every OFF Day for an hour, while watching movies or whatever- OFF Days are always ULC, I try to keep fat and protein very high, but I´m going for -30%/-40% below maintenance example 2500kcal maintenance - OFF Day 1500kcal, usually with 100 grams of fat and 160g Protein- I eat ULC before my workout and I´m keeping the calories low to eat as much carbs after the workout as possible while not going completely overboard with the calories,usually having 50g fat / 60g Protein before working out, salmon, coconut milk, 1 egg or whey protein and veggies- i´m not eating any fat during my backload, except maybe fishoil if I didnt have salmon preworkout.- just eating clean high gi foods - potatoes / rice with chicken breast- postworkoutshake consists of whey, 2 very ripe bananas and creatine- taking vitamin d3, fishoil, multivitamin, extra calcium since dairy is low, zma...- the workout should only be there to keep your strength or maybe even increase it, currently doing 5/3/1- count your calories, if you want to lose fat while being at single digits alreadyso it´s pretty much a combination of UD2.0(glycogen depletion workouts), leangains(fasting and LISS Cardio) and CBL(carbs only after the workout, refeeding), works great so far.
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- CBL / CNS related content!@gremlin1267For the eggs and cheese thing:http://www.ajcn.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf+htmlAlso see:http://dangerouslyhardcore.com/forum/index.php?topic=3288.msg34262#msg34262
Yeah, I had found that article a while back and posted it here somewhere's. I love my eggs, but I'll give them up for a while until I hit the right numbers. I thought I would be okay with just eggs and bacon, but still to much insulin response.
What about the beef in this study? Insulin was higher for beef and fish than eggs and cheese. (though they were both lean cuts). Kiefer suggested adding fat/cheese to eggs to limit insulin. Anyone with a glucometer might be able to run tests on themselves
Yeah, once we get enough replies I can compile it and put it into a useable format. It needs a much larger volume of experience to pull from though so we can get a comprehensive list of what works and what hinders progress. Sometimes observation and simple little tricks that you learn along the way can make all the difference. Science just can't explain all the little problems at times, and you just have to experiment. Everyone's is different, but if we can get enough of a sample size with the what works, what to try, people will have a better feel for what to do when you get down to those low number or if for example someone is stalling for whatever reason.
I know the fasting past 12 hours is problem for me, could see results quicker. A CN every 5th day?! Oh boy...Well, we know at least Big Tex is excited...this one may need some further research into, but it's worth investigating. I can see the benefits of just having an altogether f$#% it day and then going back on the usual scheme of things, just to keep the body off balance. I mean the body still adapts to certain aspects of CBL I'm sure, and having a switch at odd times may prove worthwhile, plus it'd be really useful for Thanksgiving and Christmas. And what do you mean fasting beyond 12 hours? As in after you've been awake or from bedtime to first food intake?
im going to start intaking carbs halfway through my workout and have all the carbs im going to eat that day within 2 hours post workout. Im also going to clean it up some. so less sugar for example. still high glycemic though. I'd like to see how well this goes for me. That sounds like a solid plan. CHO mid-workout would help stop cortisol release from being too severe and also start engaging MPS or at least halt MPB to get your body ready to recover and absorb nutrients. I seem to recall a study examining post workout CHO/AA, pre workout CHO/AA and during workout CHO/AA and the blood levels for cortisol and MPS. http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/2/E197.long This isn't the one I was talking about, but it is a pre and post comparison. I need a better way of organizing my research files, or at least keep them on both my computers. >:(
I stop eating at 6pm, wake up around 6am, and have my coffee mixture at around 8am, sometimes later. and first whole meal is around noon if not later.
What about the beef in this study? Insulin was higher for beef and fish than eggs and cheese. (though they were both lean cuts). Kiefer suggested adding fat/cheese to eggs to limit insulin. Anyone with a glucometer might be able to run tests on themselves
That's what I noticed, as well...Glad to see I'm not the only one here guilty of sacrilege. :-X
What about the beef in this study? Insulin was higher for beef and fish than eggs and cheese. (though they were both lean cuts). Kiefer suggested adding fat/cheese to eggs to limit insulin. Anyone with a glucometer might be able to run tests on themselves
That's what I noticed, as well...Glad to see I'm not the only one here guilty of sacrilege. :-X
It has to be the leaness that caused the large rise in insulin, probably the high levels of leucine. Although, the combination of BCAA has a similar raise in insulin if you read the whole article.
I like the idea, hope we can dissect the sticking points of all diets. Good thread.
I acheived sub 10% bodyfat with a standard bodybuilding diet. I wouldn't be able to comment on "strategies" to get that low, but in my opinion, just keep focusing on building muscle and keeping your diet under control. Over time your body will slowly improve it's composition. I don't know how you would force your body to become that lean through diet. Kiefer would have to help you with that one.Be patient is all I can say.
No disrespect intended, but I do believe we have a communication barrier @ ibobland08. I'm just talking about general observations of what people have experienced, while on either CBL and CN...those of us that are at 10%BF or under, and some of the experiences we've share with dropping below this BF%.There are always tricks. Sometimes you can figure them out on your own, sometimes all it takes is a good idea or some new way to look at the problem. This scenario is quite complex, but if we can see where the majority of people are stalling out on a diet you can have a list of how to keep dropping more BF%, or at least know where to go to fix yourself.Keifer I'm sure would be able to help, but he's far too busy managing his business and podcasting to deal with the forums, or have individual clients.I think everyone else has the idea...nice input guys.
1. Cut out cheese!2. Keep carbs in the diet, don't go ULC for more than 2 daysYeah I could see how this would be a problem...so you've already experimented with going ULC while in CBL, what was the results of that experiment if you don't mind my asking?
1. Shorter backloads i.e. limited to 2 hours post workout instead of 4 Yeah, this one is good...Keifer even said that if you backload for two hours or if women were to backload for only two hours that the results would be better, since your closer to the anabolic window (actually those weren't his exact words, but he reflected that enzymatic actions on bodyfat were limited in time frame for women.2. Fewer Backloads per week Reference fewer backloads per week, even while working out...or perhaps having ULC days while hitting small muscle groups in the gym, like a shoulder workout and backloading would be a waste of time?!?
- If you want to eat cheese, eat it post workout (~1h after your shake) or else keep it out of the diet. Same goes for eggs. Can you pull out the experience with eggs? I'm curious if your results increased dramatically after losing eggs...too bad, I love eggs.- Have a Carb Nite (rather have a backload) every 5th day. Not sooner, not later. Well, it actually depends so you might want to play around with the frequency. You might also want to keep the backloads shorter + play around with carb and fat amount in your backloads. So while on CBL, you have a Carb Nite...okay, I'll bite...if you're stalled out and you just need a break to boost the metabolism back into fat burning mode, spike T3/T4...current levels of BF% you're at now...and current dietary strategy would be helpful on this one for validity. I believe you though, this makes sense after the body get's to a certain point of BF% loss.- Keep it clean, IE selfmade fries in the oven etc. Keep the degree of the processing of the food very low to not existent. Roger, BAM that's a good one.- Don't fast longer than 12h and then break the fast with fat and protein. I think this might be the problem for quite a few people, the closer you get towards starvation levels of BF% (or low homeostasis levels the body will try to stall progress or cut muscle mass reserves as a conservation too) so yeah, fasts of long time periods would only result in lean mass gains and possibly slow gains!
Nice work guys! I'll compile these when we've got a few more entries. Heck, who knows maybe we can put something together that's sticky worthy.
Okay boys and girls,"THE COLLECTION OF STRATEGIES IS POSTED...THIS IS WHAT I HAVE SO FAR." Realize this is the first draft and needs some research articles to actually prove what is going on here, and some more information. A little help on this please.
I know I'm pretty alone on this one but I can't back load big and look lean. I back load 200-300 carbs a night Mon-Fri and wake up looking amazing (male, 5'10″, 200 lbs). I have also learned that I gain WAY more muscle doing the small back loads than I did being ULC for almost two years. I have easily put on as much muscle in the last two months dong CBL as I did the first two years working out. I could always get stronger but I never put on mass. I know it is mass and not just water swelling either.
Okay boys and girls,"THE COLLECTION OF STRATEGIES IS POSTED...THIS IS WHAT I HAVE SO FAR." Realize this is the first draft and needs some research articles to actually prove what is going on here, and some more information. A little help on this please.
Awesome document gremlin! Good compilation of information, some of it is contradictory to others on the list, but valuable none the less. If one thing doesn't work, try something else.
so some advices that work greatly for me- still hitting PRs every now and then (advanced strength in all lifts, pretty close to elite in deadlift and chinups)- current bodyfat 9-10%, just gained some fat in my holidays- I combine leangains and CBL for my cut, which means I fast for 14-16hours.- I lift only 3 days per week- I refeed / backload on every training day (3 times a week) and going for +10%/+20% above maintenanceexample: 2500kcal Maintenance level, eat 2750-3000 kcal- before breaking the fast, I like brisk walking for half an hour- I´m doing LISS Cardio on the bike every OFF Day for an hour, while watching movies or whatever- OFF Days are always ULC, I try to keep fat and protein very high, but I´m going for -30%/-40% below maintenance example 2500kcal maintenance - OFF Day 1500kcal, usually with 100 grams of fat and 160g Protein- I eat ULC before my workout and I´m keeping the calories low to eat as much carbs after the workout as possible while not going completely overboard with the calories,usually having 50g fat / 60g Protein before working out, salmon, coconut milk, 1 egg or whey protein and veggies- i´m not eating any fat during my backload, except maybe fishoil if I didnt have salmon preworkout.- just eating clean high gi foods - potatoes / rice with chicken breast- postworkoutshake consists of whey, 2 very ripe bananas and creatine- taking vitamin d3, fishoil, multivitamin, extra calcium since dairy is low, zma...- the workout should only be there to keep your strength or maybe even increase it, currently doing 5/3/1- count your calories, if you want to lose fat while being at single digits alreadyso it´s pretty much a combination of UD2.0(glycogen depletion workouts), leangains(fasting and LISS Cardio) and CBL(carbs only after the workout, refeeding), works great so far.
I like all this a lot, and I think I will use some, if not all of it for plataue busters when needed!
I know I'm pretty alone on this one but I can't back load big and look lean. I back load 200-300 carbs a night Mon-Fri and wake up looking amazing (male, 5'10", 200 lbs). I have also learned that I gain WAY more muscle doing the small back loads than I did being ULC for almost two years. I have easily put on as much muscle in the last two months dong CBL as I did the first two years working out. I could always get stronger but I never put on mass. I know it is mass and not just water swelling either.
BB, can I call you BB?Anyway, I think that maybe your body type might just work better with the ULC. Did you start out on a particular diet where you couldn't add mass? What sort of training protocol? And typical build...you sound like a hard gainer or ectomorph, but your size would say differently. Could be related to how many calories you were eating before is why I ask. How about a full diet right up or the general pieces? You can PM me if you have them in another format and don't want to write it out. It just seems like a very small amount of CHO to be backloading on...however, hard to tell at this point.
Okay boys and girls,"THE COLLECTION OF STRATEGIES IS POSTED...THIS IS WHAT I HAVE SO FAR." Realize this is the first draft and needs some research articles to actually prove what is going on here, and some more information. A little help on this please.
Awesome document gremlin! Good compilation of information, some of it is contradictory to others on the list, but valuable none the less. If one thing doesn't work, try something else.
Well, like I said a working draft in progress. We really need some research articles to back these statements up and I'm just compiling what others have found has worked for them. Then if people can help me compile some research that proves or disproves others we can rank them in order of importance. I put the ones that I thought would be most important in italics, because they seem to be backed up constantly and I think they can be proven through research. Some of them may be garbage, but everyone's different so what works for one, doesn't always work for others.I just figured out from a post with BostonBully that there may be a genetic phenotype relationship too in overall amount of CHO for backloading.
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