Transforming Recipes question

[mwhitney]

Hi guys/gals – brand new here. Just a quick question Re the TR book that's out. If anyone has it, I'm unclear as the 'F' meals and 'P' meals. The book says that if you choose a predominately 'F' (fat) food, to then select a 'P' (protein) food to keep things balanced.Does this imply one Fat recipe with one Protein recipe per meal? Also, how many meals per day, and how would one track using these meals to hit a certain caloric target.The recipes look great, but the 'mapping out' is a bit ambiguous - either that or I'm slow.Thanks in advance.

[Richard Schmitt]

Yes and no. You could just add butter or coconut oil to a “P” recipe and be done. Meals per day is up to your choosing. If you're hungry to have a couple meals great, but be sure to eat enough fats and proteins. Mostly fat.

[mwhitney]

Thanks BigTex. I guess the key is to determine a daily calorie target and given P/C/F targets and then follow the IIFYM approach? Or is this counter to CBL. I'm not an 'eat by feel' guy and need to track (at least for now). Do you have any recommendations for establishing a calorie target for a low carb approach?Thanks.

[Richard Schmitt]

If you're a macro guy, then there has been many recommended ratios to follow…throughout the forums, Facebook groups, etc.However, you should strive to have the fats dominant. So around .75-1g/BW and protein around that same ratio. Make protein moderate amount, with no less than .8g/BW. At least in my opinion.

[Trevor G Fullbright]

Thanks BigTex. I guess the key is to determine a daily calorie target and given P/C/F targets and then follow the IIFYM approach? Or is this counter to CBL. I'm not an 'eat by feel' guy and need to track (at least for now). Do you have any recommendations for establishing a calorie target for a low carb approach?Thanks.

An easy range is .7-1g protein per lbs of lean body mass, and .7-1g fat per lbs of lean body mass or desired body weight.

[mwhitney]

Thanks BT and Trevor. This makes sense to me, so essentially it's 1:1 for P/F.Here's where I'm at: 155 lbs, 5'7", app 10-11% BF with a goal weight of 145 lbs and 6-7% BF. Once I hit that leanness level, I'd like to do a very slow bulk and remain lean while doing so. Is this realistic / doable? At .8 for a starting point for each macro, this would be 115 g (using goal weight). That's 460 calories from P and 1035 calories from fat. 1495 cals for the day...seems low! Am I on track here? My BMR is 1624 (coma calories). I understand that one has to eat at a deficit to lose BF - just don't want to eat too low or breakdown / lose muscle (common fears no doubt) - is this rooted in bro-science? Am I worrying over nothing?My next question would then be, where does a carb re-feed come in, and how is this calculated? I'm assuming it is a re-feed that resets leptin levels and restores glycogen. I'm curious what carb re-feed protocols people are following here as far as timing, intervals, and quantity of carbs.Thanks for your feedback - no doubt this has been covered to death.

[Trevor G Fullbright]

Thanks BT and Trevor. This makes sense to me, so essentially it's 1:1 for P/F.Here's where I'm at: 155 lbs, 5'7", app 10-11% BF with a goal weight of 145 lbs and 6-7% BF. Once I hit that leanness level, I'd like to do a very slow bulk and remain lean while doing so. Is this realistic / doable? At .8 for a starting point for each macro, this would be 115 g (using goal weight). That's 460 calories from P and 1035 calories from fat. 1495 cals for the day...seems low! Am I on track here? My BMR is 1624 (coma calories). I understand that one has to eat at a deficit to lose BF - just don't want to eat too low or breakdown / lose muscle (common fears no doubt) - is this rooted in bro-science? Am I worrying over nothing?My next question would then be, where does a carb re-feed come in, and how is this calculated? I'm assuming it is a re-feed that resets leptin levels and restores glycogen. I'm curious what carb re-feed protocols people are following here as far as timing, intervals, and quantity of carbs.Thanks for your feedback - no doubt this has been covered to death.

Personally, I'd bulk between 8-12%, that will really be the sweet spot for gaining muscle while minimizing fat gain.Re-feeds will be every 4-5th day.

[mwhitney]

Thanks Trevor – Hope you guys don't mind a few more questions.I read CarbNite but find there isn't a clear plan in terms of how to implement the diet as far as specific fats/proteins. I gather it's kind of a 'shoot from the hip' approach during the week and I need something a bit more specific.As mentioned here, 1:1 Fat:Protein with a goal of app .8-1g/lb of LBM (Kiefer mentions anywhere from .5 to 1.3 I believe).With this said, at a current weight of 155 and a goal weight of 145 (w/ estimated LBM of app 139/140 lbs) - that would put my protein target at 448g / day and my fats at 1008 g/day. That's only 1456 cals/day.Does this sound right?  My BMR is 1624 per day - is this not considered my 'coma calories'? If I'm working out (3-4 x per week 4-8 rep range) Will I be burning myself out?I get that the carbnite serves as a re-feed and that calories should be considered over the week but I'm estimating a re-feed may take in 1000 to 3000 calories. Divided by 7 days is only an extra ~140 - 430 calories/day. On the higher end (430) that's substantial (still only bringing me into the 1800-1900 range) but again, that's assuming I could ingest 3000 calories on a given carb nite (maybe I could...time will tell 😉  ).I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this.Thanks in advance guys. Sorry to have this 'dumbed down'. I've tried many 'systems' and don't want to spin my wheels here - aka getting started right.Best -M

[Charles T Grimsley]

Thanks Trevor - Hope you guys don't mind a few more questions.I read CarbNite but find there isn't a clear plan in terms of how to implement the diet as far as specific fats/proteins. I gather it's kind of a 'shoot from the hip' approach during the week and I need something a bit more specific.As mentioned here, 1:1 Fat:Protein with a goal of app .8-1g/lb of LBM (Kiefer mentions anywhere from .5 to 1.3 I believe). I would keep protein at 0.8 g/lb and use fat to make up the rest of your calories since getting really lean is your goal.With this said, at a current weight of 155 and a goal weight of 145 (w/ estimated LBM of app 139/140 lbs) - that would put my protein target at 448g / day and my fats at 1008 g/day. That's only 1456 cals/day. I am going to assume you meant calories for the protein and fat/day lol. If you keep the base of 0.8g/lb protein then you go from there with fat. In terms of cals/day this should be something you need to adjust. You will need to gauge your energy levels, your recovery, weight loss over time. Fine tune based on this up or down.Does this sound right?  My BMR is 1624 per day - is this not considered my 'coma calories'? If I'm working out (3-4 x per week 4-8 rep range) Will I be burning myself out? Where did you get this BMR? If it is based on any estimate then it is probably wrong lol. You'll probably need to experiment with this and find what calorie amount you maintain weight if you really want to go the slight deficit from your BMR to lose route. I would suggest just skipping that and find the amount of fat you need to maintain your workouts and lose fat. 4-8 rep range is extremely vague in describing your workouts. What lifts are you doing? How many sets/exercises per workout? You won't burn yourself out if you eat enough. Feeling like you aren't recovering well from your workouts...eat more and don't be concerned about doing that.I get that the carbnite serves as a re-feed and that calories should be considered over the week but I'm estimating a re-feed may take in 1000 to 3000 calories. Divided by 7 days is only an extra ~140 - 430 calories/day. On the higher end (430) that's substantial (still only bringing me into the 1800-1900 range) but again, that's assuming I could ingest 3000 calories on a given carb nite (maybe I could...time will tell 😉  ). I think you are focusing on calories too much. It is fine if you want to keep track of them (I personally track macros). For your re-feed you are focusing on spiking insulin and keeping the spill over to a minimum.I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this.Thanks in advance guys. Sorry to have this 'dumbed down'. I've tried many 'systems' and don't want to spin my wheels here - aka getting started right.Best -M

[mwhitney]

Great info! Thank you cgrimsl1. Please see below in blue:

Thanks Trevor - Hope you guys don't mind a few more questions.I read CarbNite but find there isn't a clear plan in terms of how to implement the diet as far as specific fats/proteins. I gather it's kind of a 'shoot from the hip' approach during the week and I need something a bit more specific.As mentioned here, 1:1 Fat:Protein with a goal of app .8-1g/lb of LBM (Kiefer mentions anywhere from .5 to 1.3 I believe). I would keep protein at 0.8 g/lb and use fat to make up the rest of your calories since getting really lean is your goal.With this said, at a current weight of 155 and a goal weight of 145 (w/ estimated LBM of app 139/140 lbs) - that would put my protein target at 448g / day and my fats at 1008 g/day. That's only 1456 cals/day. I am going to assume you meant calories for the protein and fat/day lol. If you keep the base of 0.8g/lb protein then you go from there with fat. In terms of cals/day this should be something you need to adjust. You will need to gauge your energy levels, your recovery, weight loss over time. Fine tune based on this up or down.No wonder I'm not seeing results! 😉 You're right, calories not grams - thanks for the correction :).  I will take your advice and start with .8g/lb and make up the remainder with fats. I can appreciate that training volume and individual differences can have a bearing on calories required, but what is a good start point? I'll certainly adjust according to energy levels/recovery as you mention. What do you recommend as a start point?Does this sound right?  My BMR is 1624 per day - is this not considered my 'coma calories'? If I'm working out (3-4 x per week 4-8 rep range) Will I be burning myself out? Where did you get this BMR? If it is based on any estimate then it is probably wrong lol. You'll probably need to experiment with this and find what calorie amount you maintain weight if you really want to go the slight deficit from your BMR to lose route. I would suggest just skipping that and find the amount of fat you need to maintain your workouts and lose fat. 4-8 rep range is extremely vague in describing your workouts. What lifts are you doing? How many sets/exercises per workout? You won't burn yourself out if you eat enough. Feeling like you aren't recovering well from your workouts...eat more and don't be concerned about doing that.As for training, I'm working out M/W/F using RPT training. Typically I'm doing 2 warm-up sets for main muscle groups (3 sets with 5 reps, 3 reps 1 rep) and at 60%/ 70%/ and 90% of 1 rep-max.  I could go into my full routine but don't wan't to bore anyone with details. Suffice to say that Mon is weighted chins, back, shoulders, Wed is Deadlifts, Squats, Calves and Friday is Biceps, Chest. After my warm up sets I work from heaviest weight first, for 2 sets, the first being in the 4-6 rep range, the second set 6-8 rep range. I rest 3 minutes between sets for full recovery and increase my weight by 5-10% per week as I'm able, or microload with 2.5 lb places once I've reached the top of my rep range for the first set (hopefully this makes some sense. On off days, I walk for 45-60 minutes or do yoga for the same amount of time. My current diet (past 4 weeks) has been about 1780 cals at a profile of 40/30/40 (P/C/F). I was doing a refeed day every Friday, upping my cals to about 2500 using the same ratios but I'm not seeing the body fat budge. Weight remains constant at about 150-157. Again, my goal is to get down to a desired leanness of app 145 while maintaining as much mass as possible and then slowly building from there (at least that's my tentative plan). At 155 I just feel soft and not chiselled / clearly defined. To answer your question, I calculated my BMR using an online calculator for a loose number. I've also read that a quick ballpark to calculate 'coma calories' is to just multiply your BW by 10. For me that would put me at 1550 (maybe this is incorrect - I appreciate any myth debunking from anyone as I'm learning as I go and trying to wade through the waves of info out there on the net). In sum, I'm curious about how to calculate a starting calorie goal. Perhaps given that I'm not seeing the scale budge (maybe I'm adding muscle with my current routine, but clothes are fitting about the same, measurements aren't changing too much) that I should use my current '1780' calorie target moving forward with a P/F diet? Or should I start lower? How low? Do I need to be concerned about eating below BMR? How far below is safe to preserve muscle? Am I overthinking this?Lastly, when you mention that you track macros how do you mean? I've always just used MyFitnessPal to set given calorie targets and macro %'s. Would you mind sharing what you do? Thank you again - I truly appreciate everyone's time and insight.Call me a guy who's tried a ton of courses, eBooks, Diets and have yet to get the results I'm after. This isn't for lack of following things to the letter. The best results I've achieved is from Clay Roger's Hollywood Physique Method which is reminiscent of this strategy. Essentially I lived on chicken thighs, eggs and spinach for 20 weeks with a 1 hour carb refeed every Sunday. It worked well, brought me down to 143 and pretty ripped, but it became joyless after a while (apart from the hour of gluttony on Sunday). I realize CNS can be the same, but it seems less regimented in terms of what types of meats and veg / fats can be eaten during the week.Cheers guys. I get that the carbnite serves as a re-feed and that calories should be considered over the week but I'm estimating a re-feed may take in 1000 to 3000 calories. Divided by 7 days is only an extra ~140 - 430 calories/day. On the higher end (430) that's substantial (still only bringing me into the 1800-1900 range) but again, that's assuming I could ingest 3000 calories on a given carb nite (maybe I could...time will tell 😉  ). I think you are focusing on calories too much. It is fine if you want to keep track of them (I personally track macros). For your re-feed you are focusing on spiking insulin and keeping the spill over to a minimum.I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this.Thanks in advance guys. Sorry to have this 'dumbed down'. I've tried many 'systems' and don't want to spin my wheels here - aka getting started right.Best -M

[Charles T Grimsley]

Sure you can start with 1780 and adjust from there. Since you have been intaking 30% carbs you will notice some fatigue the first 2 weeks trying to workout without carbs while your body adjusts to using fat for energy. It is very frustrating but you will adjust given time. Go from there if you go for several weeks/a month and see no changes happening lower cals. If you are struggling in the gym after a couple weeks and feel like you aren't recovering up cals. Undereating can make it difficult to drop bf as well.In terms of tracking my macros I will weigh my food and based of nutrition information I know how many grams of protein, fat, and carbs I intake.

[mwhitney]

Thanks Grims, I'll start there and adjust as req'd. As a starting point, do you recommend adjusting by 100 cals or so as per results (or lack thereof)?Logging in MFP, things prove a bit tricky as I can't customize carb settings below 5% which sets my carbs to app. 20 for the day. I can just keep an eye on it I suppose. The other point to consider is that MFP does not track carbs in terms of usable carbs. Is anyone else using a different means of tracking that can be better customized to work with this plan?This morning I had 2 strips of bacon and 4 eggs - 2 cabs used up already :). This was a higher fat meal, so my next should be heavier on the protein I'm assuming? (IIFYM question below).A few loose ends:1) How crucial is it that non-starchy veg is tracked? I.e. should I be tracking the 1/4 onion I put in my omelette? or the handful of spinach? (of course potatoes, sweet, corn etc. would be different).2) Should I be trying to balance a predominately 'fat' meal with a protein meal at a given sitting? Or, is it basically an IIFYM (if it fits your macros) strategy for tracking? That is, so long as my fat/protein totals are hit for the day, I'm good to go?The recipes in CNS and TR are appealing, tons of variety, but I'll most likely find a plan/recipe that fits and stick with it. Once I know certain meals work it's easier to just repeat using a handful vs changing the game every day. I tend to eat the same thing every day with only one 'wild card' meal - just keeps things easier.Cheers.

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