Two questions regarding DB

[imp]

1- About a month in, I'm not noticing much in the way of size gain… It almost seems on par with what I was getting from SA minus a little fat gain. I'm not expecting to get huge overnight, but the scale isn't exactly tipping, either.2- How accurate are the charts in the back of the book? I know most people are saying to ignore them, and to start eating an hour after an AM accelerator..but after that, how large/frequent should my meal portions be? I've seen loads of example SA diets posted by users on here, but have yet to see any example DB meal plans.Thanks

[pshannon]

1- About a month in, I'm not noticing much in the way of size gain, but strength is still going up. Shouldn't size gain be noticeable? It almost seems on par with SA minus a little fat gain.You should probably up your food intake for 2 weeks and see how your body responds. If your not really gaining size your not eating enough. So whatever your normal day looks like, add more for 2 weeks! The best way to see if your growing is by taking measurements2- How accurate are the charts in the back of the book? I know most people are saying to ignore them, and to start eating an hour after an AM accelerator..but after that, how large/frequent should my meal portions be? I've seen loads of example SA diets posted by users on here, but have yet to see any example DB meal plans.DB would be eat Breakfast right after your AM shake. Have a normal Fat/Protein Lunch. If you want get another meal in pre workout. But I think the most important thing is getting in the shakes intra-workout. Your going to have to eat to gain size/weight! Thanks

[Big_R]

1- About a month in, I'm not noticing much in the way of size gain... It almost seems on par with what I was getting from SA minus a little fat gain. I'm not expecting to get huge overnight, but the scale isn't exactly tipping, either.2- How accurate are the charts in the back of the book? I know most people are saying to ignore them, and to start eating an hour after an AM accelerator..but after that, how large/frequent should my meal portions be? I've seen loads of example SA diets posted by users on here, but have yet to see any example DB meal plans.Thanks

What do your pre-workout meals look like?  what time do you train? what is your training routine? 

[Gl;itch.e]

What have you changed from SA to DB? Presumably you've added AND subtracted some things. A brief run through would give us a better base to go off.

[imp]

1- About a month in, I'm not noticing much in the way of size gain... It almost seems on par with what I was getting from SA minus a little fat gain. I'm not expecting to get huge overnight, but the scale isn't exactly tipping, either.2- How accurate are the charts in the back of the book? I know most people are saying to ignore them, and to start eating an hour after an AM accelerator..but after that, how large/frequent should my meal portions be? I've seen loads of example SA diets posted by users on here, but have yet to see any example DB meal plans.Thanks

What do your pre-workout meals look like?  what time do you train? what is your training routine?

I have three scoops of whey and usually do bicep curls in the squat rack a few days a week.No, but really. On a typical training day:5:30am - Wake, AM accelerator6:00am - 8oz 80/20 ground beef w/ 4-5 scrambled eggs (cooked in the fat)9:00am - 12-14oz 80/20 ground beef OR chicken cooked in butter (enough to balance out to a 1:1 for fat/protein)12:00pm - 8oz chicken thighs, again cooked in butter.2:15pm - Ignition formula3:00pm - Train.Intra-workout - 5g leucine, 20g whey hydrosylate, 25g whey isolate, 60g waxy~4:30pm - PWO - 5g leucine, 50g whey isolate, ~60g carbs from dextrose5:30pm - Backload, first meal is around 150-200g carbs, typically somewhat 'clean'7:30pm - Second backload, ice cream, cookies, etc.My carb intake after a workout is dependent upon how rigorous it was (arm day, I wouldn't backload as hard as after a rough deadlift session)My training split is:Sunday - Bi's/Tri'sMonday - Chest/shouldersTuesday - OffWednesday - LegsThursday - OffFriday - BackSaturday - OffMy routines change relatively frequently, but I always train to failure on at least 2-3 sets per workout. Deadlift, bench, and squat especially. Mainly hypertrophy-specific movements. I'm ~180 right now, 5'9. I'm sure I'm doing plenty wrong, but figured this would be a good place to come for some correction.

[Cory McCarthy]

I have three scoops of whey and usually do bicep curls in the squat rack a few days a week.No, but really. On a typical training day:5:30am - Wake, AM accelerator6:00am - 8oz 80/20 ground beef w/ 4-5 scrambled eggs (cooked in the fat)9:00am - 12-14oz 80/20 ground beef OR chicken cooked in butter (enough to balance out to a 1:1 for fat/protein)12:00pm - 8oz chicken thighs, again cooked in butter.2:15pm - Ignition formula3:00pm - Train.Intra-workout - 5g leucine, 20g whey hydrosylate, 25g whey isolate, 60g waxy~4:30pm - PWO - 5g leucine, 50g whey isolate, ~60g carbs from dextrose5:30pm - Backload, first meal is around 150-200g carbs, typically somewhat 'clean'7:30pm - Second backload, ice cream, cookies, etc.My carb intake after a workout is dependent upon how rigorous it was (arm day, I wouldn't backload as hard as after a rough deadlift session)My training split is:Sunday - Bi's/Tri'sMonday - Chest/shouldersTuesday - OffWednesday - LegsThursday - OffFriday - BackSaturday - OffMy routines change relatively frequently, but I always train to failure on at least 2-3 sets per workout. Deadlift, bench, and squat especially. Mainly hypertrophy-specific movements. I'm ~180 right now, 5'9. I'm sure I'm doing plenty wrong, but figured this would be a good place to come for some correction.

You got me there... the whole curl in the rack shit is one of my worst pet peeves.  ;DYour split is not far from mine, except I put Delts with Arms, and Back with Chest (like Arnold).Cory

[Big_R]

1- About a month in, I'm not noticiAfter All, , ch in the way of size gain... It almost seems on par with what I was getting from SA minus a little fat gain. I'm not expecting to get huge overnight, but the scale isn't exactly tipping, either.2- How accurate are the charts in the back of the book? I know most people are saying to ignore them, and to start eating an hour after an AM accelerator..but after that, how large/frequent should my meal portions be? I've seen loads of example SA diets posted by users on here, but have yet to see any example DB meal plans.Thanks

What do your pre-workout meals look like?  what time do you train? what is your training routine?

I have three scoops of whey and usually do bicep curls in the squat rack a few days a week.No, but really. On a typical training day:5:30am - Wake, AM accelerator6:00am - 8oz 80/20 ground beef w/ 4-5 scrambled eggs (cooked in the fat)9:00am - 12-14oz 80/20 ground beef OR chicken cooked in butter (enough to balance out to a 1:1 for fat/protein)12:00pm - 8oz chicken thighs, again cooked in butter.2:15pm - Ignition formula3:00pm - Train.Intra-workout - 5g leucine, 20g whey hydrosylate, 25g whey isolate, 60g waxy~4:30pm - PWO - 5g leucine, 50g whey isolate, ~60g carbs from dextrose5:30pm - Backload, first meal is around 150-200g carbs, typically somewhat 'clean'7:30pm - Second backload, ice cream, cookies, etc.My carb intake after a workout is dependent upon how rigorous it was (arm day, I wouldn't backload as hard as after a rough deadlift session)My training split is:Sunday - Bi's/Tri'sMonday - Chest/shouldersTuesday - OffWednesday - LegsThursday - OffFriday - BackSaturday - OffMy routines change relatively frequently, but I always train to failure on at least 2-3 sets per workout. Deadlift, bench, and squat especially. Mainly hypertrophy-specific movements. I'm ~180 right now, 5'9. I'm sure I'm doing plenty wrong, but figured this would be a good place to come for some correction.

Well I, Like What I See As You Outlines Above....  I Would Strive For More Calories Prior Too Your Workout A Tough As It May Seem...  The Only Thing I Can Comment On With Training Is That Doing Arms The Day Before Chest Day Probably Not The Best If You Are Really Pushing Yourself Too The Limit Intensity Wise On A Few Sets...  You May Want To Mix Up Your Volume And See If That Helps.  after all You Grow When You Are Out Of The Gym

[Eric Shaw]

5:30am - Wake, AM accelerator6:00am - 8oz 80/20 ground beef w/ 4-5 scrambled eggs (cooked in the fat)9:00am - 12-14oz 80/20 ground beef OR chicken cooked in butter (enough to balance out to a 1:1 for fat/protein)12:00pm - 8oz chicken thighs, again cooked in butter.2:15pm - Ignition formula3:00pm - Train.Intra-workout - 5g leucine, 20g whey hydrosylate, 25g whey isolate, 60g waxy~4:30pm - PWO - 5g leucine, 50g whey isolate, ~60g carbs from dextrose5:30pm - Backload, first meal is around 150-200g carbs, typically somewhat 'clean'7:30pm - Second backload, ice cream, cookies, etc.

Am I the only one who noticed the fact that your protein intake is off the charts? Based on the food you listed, you are taking in over 300+grams of protein a day based on my estimates, NOT even including your PWO whole food meals! If you weigh 180lbs that is almost approaching 2g/lb  which is way more then even the upper limit Kiefer recommends of 1.3, which even he says is usually unnecessary. Given the fact the most of your calories are coming from protein, to me it sounds like you should drop your protein down closer to 180-200, and up the carbs to replace those wasted calories coming form all that protein. In my humble opinion I feel the reason you aren't growing is because most of your energy is coming from protein which most of it you are just pissing out, and you are short changing your muscles by not using those calories from carbs instead. Not to mention the fact hat must get awfully expensive eating that much meat per day.Just my $0.028oz 80/20 ground beef w/ 4-5 scrambled eggs; ~75 grams/Protein12-14oz 80/20 ground beef OR chicken cooked in butter ; ~60-70grams/Protein 8oz chicken thighs, again cooked in butter; ~40-50grams/ProteinIgnition formula; 10grams/ProteinIntra-workout - 5g leucine, 20g whey hydrosylate, 25g whey isolate, 60g waxy; 45grams/Protein PWO - 5g leucine, 50g whey isolate, ~60g carbs from dextrose; 50grams/ProteinBackload, first meal is around 150-200g carbs, typically somewhat 'clean'; Protein amount unknown?Second backload, ice cream, cookies, etc.; Protein amount unknown ?So according the your own meal plan you are eating 300+ grams of protein per day, not including your back load meals. That is too much.With all due respect to the other posters, I don't think your problem is you need more food pre-workout, you are already consuming over 250g/P pre-workout, In fact you could probably eat about half that amount pre-work out. If you were to up your pre-work out food intake you would conceivably be eating upwards of 400+grams protein a day!!!! I think your problem is not enough food post work out, specifically carbs . And I'm basing this off Kiefers own dictates, not my own. I don't claim to be an expert, anybody who reads and comprehends Kiefers material would come to the same conclusions, I believe.I'm a little surprised no one else has eluded to this fact.

[Igor Vidovic]

Am I the only one who noticed the fact that your protein intake is off the charts?I'm a little surprised no one else has eluded to this fact.I think main reason everyone skipped that was because he lost everybody after the "curl in the squat rack" comment. People's cognitive function just tends to self destruct after that.  8)

training log
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yQ7u-n9iU7R910fUgcAEo5NJoUZzT3w1zLC5qYyaGZE/edit#gid=1795865688

[imp]

So would the first step be to reduce the amount of times I eat earlier on in the day? Or to keep the same number of meals, with just…less?And yeah....it is incredibly expensive, I assumed that was just part of the game.  ::)

[MaxDetonator]

I can attest to the high protein not making a difference when it comes to muscle building…Trying to sort out my own diet for CBL DB...Please have a look and advice...my stats is as follows...1.68 cm, 100kg calipers shows 13 to 14 % bfTrain 5 times a week on FST 77:00am - Wake, AM accelerator8:00am - 4 scrambled eggs (cooked in coconut oil) with 100g bacon12:00am - 100g chicken greek salad with feta and a 1tbsp MCT15:00pm -100g Beef Patty with a slice of chedar cheese and 1 tbsp MCT17:15pm - Ignition formula17:30pm - Train.Intra-workout - 5g leucine, 20g whey hydrosylate, 25g whey isolate, 60g waxy19:30pm - PWO - 5g leucine, 50g whey isolate, ~40g carbs from dextrose and 1 Bananna20:30pm - Backload, first meal - 200g Chicken breast, 200g White rice in stir fry21:30pm - Second backload, ice cream, cookies, etc.

[Big_R]

So would the first step be to reduce the amount of times I eat earlier on in the day? Or to keep the same number of meals, with just...less?And yeah....it is incredibly expensive, I assumed that was just part of the game.  ::)

If you are going to stick with the high protein you need to be 110% sure your matching it with equal or slightly more fat - this will reduce the chances of fat accumulation.  If you aren't growing you need to eat more... if you feel you are eating more then you need to look at your training.  are you pushing yourself hard enough?  are you overtraining? 

I can attest to the high protein not making a difference when it comes to muscle building...Trying to sort out my own diet for CBL DB...Please have a look and advice...my stats is as follows...1.68 cm, 100kg calipers shows 13 to 14 % bfTrain 5 times a week on FST 77:00am - Wake, AM accelerator8:00am - 4 scrambled eggs (cooked in coconut oil) with 100g bacon12:00am - 100g chicken greek salad with feta and a 1tbsp MCT15:00pm -100g Beef Patty with a slice of chedar cheese and 1 tbsp MCT17:15pm - Ignition formula17:30pm - Train.Intra-workout - 5g leucine, 20g whey hydrosylate, 25g whey isolate, 60g waxy19:30pm - PWO - 5g leucine, 50g whey isolate, ~40g carbs from dextrose and 1 Bananna20:30pm - Backload, first meal - 200g Chicken breast, 200g White rice in stir fry21:30pm - Second backload, ice cream, cookies, etc.

I would agree with you on this, but the OP says he has gained some fat on his DB, versus not gaining fat on SA ( or at least that's how i take it). 

[imp]

So would the first step be to reduce the amount of times I eat earlier on in the day? Or to keep the same number of meals, with just...less?And yeah....it is incredibly expensive, I assumed that was just part of the game.  ::)

If you are going to stick with the high protein you need to be 110% sure your matching it with equal or slightly more fat - this will reduce the chances of fat accumulation.  If you aren't growing you need to eat more... if you feel you are eating more then you need to look at your training.  are you pushing yourself hard enough?  are you overtraining? 

I'm more than happy to drop the protein amount, so long as growth is still 100% promoted. With SA I was sticking to around 1.2g per lb/bw but I assume that was more for maintenance than anything else.Definitely not slacking on training, and my workouts never last longer than an hour, with plenty of rest days in my split.I think the main reason I eat so much pre-workout is because I still haven't gotten back into the swing of things when it comes to putting down 4 turnovers in one sitting. I get really full really easily post workout.

[Trevor G Fullbright]

So would the first step be to reduce the amount of times I eat earlier on in the day? Or to keep the same number of meals, with just...less?And yeah....it is incredibly expensive, I assumed that was just part of the game.  ::)

If you are going to stick with the high protein you need to be 110% sure your matching it with equal or slightly more fat - this will reduce the chances of fat accumulation.  If you aren't growing you need to eat more... if you feel you are eating more then you need to look at your training.  are you pushing yourself hard enough?  are you overtraining? 

I'm more than happy to drop the protein amount, so long as growth is still 100% promoted. With SA I was sticking to around 1.2g per lb/bw but I assume that was more for maintenance than anything else.Definitely not slacking on training, and my workouts never last longer than an hour, with plenty of rest days in my split.I think the main reason I eat so much pre-workout is because I still haven't gotten back into the swing of things when it comes to putting down 4 turnovers in one sitting. I get really full really easily post workout.

There really isn't a point in having more then 1.3g/lbs at any time, once you get to that point you might as well just add more carbs in.Cheaper that way and less stomach issues most of the time.I've found DB takes much more tweaking to prevent fat gain versus just running SA, it is however really effective once you dial it in and hit smooth sailing.

[imp]

So maybe dial it back to just two meals pre-workout (breakfast and lunch) and have smaller portions than I am now?This is kind of making me miss fasting on SA and not having to worry about preparing food early in the morning  ::)

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