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http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/protein.htmlKiefer's basis of his recommendations are by looking at the science. Just wanted to see what everybody thought of the "vegetarian" science. I'm doing Carb Nite and a rampant meat eater but I would like to be able to respond to these claims. What do y'all think?
That's the stupidest chart I've seen in a while. Since fruits are 6,7% protein and all you “need” is 2.5% it's impossible to not get enough protein?
Every single whole plant food has more than 2.5% protein, and every group averages at least 11% except for fruit.
Those are two different percentages! A % of your diet and a % of macronutrient content in a food is not the same. ><This site is full of fallacies and misinformation. Reading it annoys me, and I won't read all of it...
I am a vegetarian (Lacto-Ovo), and I consider eggs and cheese my primary protein sources. I count the plant sources, but I do not rely on them specifically. I don't touch soy.Here is my CNS log:http://dangerouslyhardcore.com/forum/index.php?topic=3144.0Cory
From listening to all the podcasts, I realize a lot of their claims on the website contradict what Kiefer says. But what i found interesting was how they claim that you don't need meat for a complete proteins. They provide that chart for amino acids. My question is what makes these vegetarian foods NOT complete proteins? What would y'all say to their claim that meat wreaks havoc on the digestive system?Cory,It's cool to hear the perspective of a vegetarian. Often Kiefer says to eliminate cheese if your progress is stalled on CNS, but it is one of your main sources of food. Do you find that your progress is slowed eating that much cheese? Also, what do you do about the insulin response tendencies of eggs? Just interested.
From listening to all the podcasts, I realize a lot of their claims on the website contradict what Kiefer says. But what i found interesting was how they claim that you don't need meat for a complete proteins. They provide that chart for amino acids. My question is what makes these vegetarian foods NOT complete proteins? What would y'all say to their claim that meat wreaks havoc on the digestive system?Cory,It's cool to hear the perspective of a vegetarian. Often Kiefer says to eliminate cheese if your progress is stalled on CNS, but it is one of your main sources of food. Do you find that your progress is slowed eating that much cheese? Also, what do you do about the insulin response tendencies of eggs? Just interested.
If my progress stalls, which it hasn't, I would eliminate cheese and go strictly eggs.If you view my log, you can see my progress on CNS is consistent, I am very happy. 🙂The issue w/ cheese, I believe, is essentially: once you pop, you cannot stop.Cheese does not signal a feeling of "fullness", so you keep eating... and eventually, caloric overload. There is probably an issue w/ inflammation, too... but, I've not had this.I don't over-eat cheese, b/c I follow my meal plan that works. It says to eat X oz. of cheese at a given meal, so I stop at X. If I am still hungry, I add eggs. That said, I don't often feel hungry... my fat and protein ratios are right for me (after tweaking).As for eggs and insulin, I add fat... or eat a whole egg. Really, no issues. My progress is fine, at 1-2 lbs. lost a week.Honestly, you eat ANY protein, and your insulin will spike to some degree (with exceptions like whey -- which sky-rockets insulin).Cory
That's the stupidest chart I've seen in a while. Since fruits are 6,7% protein and all you "need" is 2.5% it's impossible to not get enough protein?
Every single whole plant food has more than 2.5% protein, and every group averages at least 11% except for fruit.
Those are two different percentages! A % of your diet and a % of macronutrient content in a food is not the same. ><This site is full of fallacies and misinformation. Reading it annoys me, and I won't read all of it...
It's too bad that you didn't read all of it, because had you done so you would have seen the part where I do some of the math, which might have made it clearer that the percent protein of your diet and the percent protein of food really does refer to the same thing, not different things. But let's walk through an example here.A 5'8", 165-lb., 35-year-old, active (as opposed to sedentary) man will require 2970 calories, using the same source I cite in my article.(1) His RDA for protein is 54 grams, from the same source.(1) Since every gram of protein has four calories (2), then 54 x 4 = 216 of his calories should come from protein. In percentage form, that's 216 calories from protein ÷ 2970 total calories = 7.3% of his diet from protein, according to the RDA.Now we compare to the protein that's in food. We could just about any unrefined grain, vegetable, or bean, but let's use potatoes for this example. It could just as easily be tomatoes, carrots, or oats, the conclusion is the same. Anyway, according to the USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference, one kg of potatoes has 780 calories and 28.6g of protein.(3) With four calories per gram as we saw earlier, that's 114.4 calories from protein. In percentage form, that's 114.4 calories from protein ÷ 780 total calories = 14.7% protein...which is more than *double* the RDA.The point is valid. If someone need, say, a diet of at least 7% protein, and all the food sources they select from are at least 7% protein, they will easily satisfy their protein requirements.You certainly don't have to take my word for it. I quoted a fair number of doctors and registered dietitians who talk about how plant foods easily meet the requirements for protein. And if you doubt that the two percentages I'm referring to are really the same thing, I invite you to ask any registered dietitian who will confirm that this is really an apples to apples comparison.Finally, I'm curious as to what other "fallacies and misinformation" you think I'm presenting?
SOURCES (the same as what I cited in my article, links provided there)(1) The official "Dietary Reference Intakes" by the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine, 2005(2) Report on the Working Group on Obesity, Appendix B, US Food & Drug Administration(3) USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard ReferenceFinally, I'm curious as to what other “fallacies and misinformation” you think I'm presenting?
I only skimmed through some of your article yesterday, but here's what caught my eye:Meat is an incomplete vitamin - not sure if I want to call this a straw man or a false dichotomy.It's easy to build muscle, even on a vegan diet. - Then why is the gym filled with scrawny and skinny-fat people who have looked the same for years?Could you do any of the diets from Dangerously Hardcore vegan? Let's take myself as an example: I'm 191lbs and 6 ft 1 in, lactose intolerant and gluten sensitive.On an off day I'm ingesting about 150g protein (0.8g per lb of bodyweight), 170-200g fat and as close to 0g carbs as possible (including fiber). The absolute upper limit for carbs is 30g, not counting fiber, but less is better.On a training day I get about the same amount of protein, but in 2-3 sittings I try to eat 7-800g carbs. Is this amount of food possible to eat while staying totally vegan? Are these macros even possible to hit (with no soy)?
It's easy to build muscle, even on a vegan diet. - Then why is the gym filled with scrawny and skinny-fat people who have looked the same for years?Could you do any of the diets from Dangerously Hardcore vegan?
I thought I'd take a stab at these, particularly.The gym is full of scrawny and skinny-fat b/c people, vegan or otherwise, simply DO NOT eat and/or lift properly.Even a carnivore, who doesn't consume the proper nutrients, times properly, and doesn't invest him/herself in proper training (for hypertrophy), will not see progress.People are, inherently, lazy. They want the end-result, but they don't often have what it takes to get to that destination. The worst of them don't try, the best of them half-ass it.A Vegan diet may be difficult, if not impossible, on Keifer's plan. At least Vegetarians can eat eggs, cheese, cottage cheese, butter, cream, etc.Vegan protein sources are higher in carb, and therefore would be much more difficult to make the 30g or less work. Plus, Soy is full of wonderful anti-nutrients... and Tempeh, while fermented, is still full of phyto-estrogens.Just my $0.02 on the matter.Cory
I couldn't get through the entire article. Had to give up half way through.I saw this: "Tomato is a complete protein"Faith in humanity -1 point.Give up and go home cause this one's fubar.
Draugluir, you started out by calling my chart “stupid” for comparing the percentages of protein in plant foods to protein needs, saying that it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. So I walked through an example to explain why the comparison is valid, and now you're silent on the issue. So do you still think the comparison is “stupid”? If not, then why haven't you acknowledged that it was a mistake to call it “stupid”? (And if you *do* still think it's stupid, then where's your response to walk-through I provided?) When you throw around insulting words, suggesting that your understanding is so much better than the person you're insulting, I rather think that you have an obligation to either make your case or admit your error.You also labeled as a "fallacy or misinformation" my statement that it's easy to build muscle on a vegan diet in my article. Here again, you didn't read any of the supporting evidence under that headline. I cited a plethora of peer-reviewed science, if you'd cared to look. By contrast, you haven't provided any science to support your assertion that I'm wrong, just your anecdotal observations. If you have any science that backs what you're saying, let's see it.
I couldn't get through the entire article. Had to give up half way through.I saw this: "Tomato is a complete protein"Faith in humanity -1 point.Give up and go home cause this one's fubar.
I'm seeing a pattern here: Declare something to be dumb without bothering to look at the explanation which is readily provided.In my article, I show that tomatoes (and other plant foods) are complete proteins because they exceed the minimum for each essential amino acid, using the amino acid requirements as published by the World Health Organization and the amino acid content of food as listed in the USDA's nutrient database. I put the data into a table, and I cited my sources. I would ask whether you think the WHO's figures are wrong, or the USDA's figures are wrong, but you apparently didn't even get to the point of even seeing what my sources were. Maybe you also didn't see the plethora of medical doctors and registered dietitians I quoted who concur that plant proteins are indeed complete.It's disappointing that your faith in humanity is shaken when you see someone being faithful to what the science actually says. Does this mean that your confidence in humanity is high when people rely on superstition and opinion instead of science?It's also too bad that you didn't fully read the article, because I have a special section in which I explain how the person who came up with the false idea of protein combining later realized her mistake and recanted. She's moved on, but ironically, you're still faithful to a mistake that its progenitor disavowed over thirty years ago.Finally, in response to my asking what in my article was "fallacy or misinformation" Draugluir asked of me:
Draugluir wrote:Could you do any of the diets from Dangerously Hardcore [as a ] vegan?Is [my diet of 150g protein, 170-200g fat, close to 0g carbs, and 7-800g carbs on training days] possible while staying totally vegan?Whew, talk about strawmen. Where in my article did I ever say that being vegan was compatible with some training plan that I'd never heard of? The point of my article (as evidence by its very title), was that plant foods provide more than adequate protein, and that almost all of them are complete proteins as well. If you're going to ding my article for not proving claims I never made, then I suspect there's a lot you're going to find deficient in the article. I never claimed that plant foods could cure AIDS, either, for example.
Cory,Awesome progress!! I read your story about food poisoning and i totally hear ya! It's funny how bodies are different. I can not even look at cheese or heavy cream without wanting to vomit. And I found that my progress stalled until I eliminated veggies, cheese and cream. I'm down 23 pounds in 6 or so weeks (209-186). I had pretty shredded abs at 209 too (I hate saying "shredded" but provides some perspective haha). The lesson is; we just have to take these principles and honestly evaluate and tweak! Are you going to switch to CBL someday? Density Bulking as a vegetarian would be some crazy shit haha.Awesome that we got Blue Jay himself on here. Hopefully we can get a good science battle going to further all our knowledge!
Cory,Awesome progress!! I read your story about food poisoning and i totally hear ya! It's funny how bodies are different. I can not even look at cheese or heavy cream without wanting to vomit. And I found that my progress stalled until I eliminated veggies, cheese and cream. I'm down 23 pounds in 6 or so weeks (209-186). I had pretty shredded abs at 209 too (I hate saying "shredded" but provides some perspective haha). The lesson is; we just have to take these principles and honestly evaluate and tweak! Are you going to switch to CBL someday? Density Bulking as a vegetarian would be some crazy shit haha.Awesome that we got Blue Jay himself on here. Hopefully we can get a good science battle going to further all our knowledge!
My hospital stay was horrific, and I was actually Vegan for 3 years after that, but went Lacto-Ovo in 2005 -- I have been L/O Veg. since.Yes, I will go back to CBL. I did one month previously, with results. I lost a 1 lb. of fat, too. However, 1 lb. was too little for 1 month, considering how much I had to lose, so I switched to CNS to speed up fat loss.I have been lifting, seriously, for 3 years -- as a Veg. I have put on considerable muscle. If you look at my stats in my log, you can see my measurements. My upper arms alone are 4 inches larger than when I began lifting 3 years ago. My chest is up 5 1/2 inches from that starting point. Etc. Zero meat. 🙂So, Density Bulking should be a breeze, b/c I've bulked for years before, only this time I will be using Keifer's protocol, not standard bodybuilding diets.I hear you on tweaking. I stand by what I said above, due to the ultra-low carb nature of CNS and CBL phases, Vegans might find it impossible to work, but Vegetarians just require a tiny bit of tweaking / experimentation.Cory
I see some interesting misrepresentations on this critique of vegetarian and vegan diets for muscle building. First I agree that a vegetable based diet can provide the RDA for protein. Which, as is referenced later in the author's article, is half of what it takes for a novice bodybuilding to only maintain muscle mass, not build (see his references 15 and 16). I didn't read the whole article yet, but for what it claims to prove, to be honest, the reference list is short to compel any sort of belief that one can build substantial amounts of muscle on a massively vegetable based diet.I'd like to exclude from the argument someone eating lacto-ovo because eggs and milk-derived products are rich, highly absorbed sources of protein and including these foods allows one to get adequate protein quality and quantity to grow well (as I've seen demonstrated).The onus here is clearly on the vegan community to prove via controlled studies that you can increase muscles to their maximum potential in the same timeframe as with animal based proteins. That would prove definitively the point of this article. The observational evidence is against this conjecture, as is research that shows animal sources are so powerful. Let me just give a few facts that show that the conjecture is unlikely, especially for vegans:1. 30% of vegetarians are under-weight[1], which is just as dangerous as being overweight for mortality risk. This implies that even maintaining body weight is difficult with a vegetable based diet.2. Vegetarian males have depressed levels of two critical hormones for muscle growth, testosterone[2-4] and IGF-1[6-10];3. Vegetarians (and especially vegans) are deficient in vitamin B12[11-35 (this one's rock solid)], critical for nutrient utilization4. Vegetarians have a worse omega-6 to omega-3 profile than meat eaters[36-40]; as we know from the research in CBL, high omega-3 levels make cells more anabolic (and just healthier).5. Vegetarians have low levels of several amino acids necessary for tissue repair and growth[41-51].The issue is more complex than simple protein needs or hitting the RDA. Also, note, reviews of vegan nutrition conclude that amino acid quality and absorption is impaired in a vegan diet [48]. Trying to maintain health, let alone extreme levels of muscle mass is, according to the scientific literature, difficult. This would lead one to conclude that examples of free-living vegan bodybuilders with any appreciable mass are exceptional cases (and who knows why: drug use, sneaking high-quality protein, supplementation, genetics or what not). Quoting dieticians as a support for such a conjecture is also mute. Dieticians, at best, are qualified to discuss diseased states and are educated on policy rather than research. This is an attempt at authority by proxy, but the quoted authorities have to be actual authorities on the subject in order for this to work. Plus, this is an attempt at proof by induction: "dieticians state a fact that some plants contain a complete amino acid profile as defined by the USDA, therefore, a vegan diet is equivalent to a carnivorous for muscle growth." There are several necessary steps missing from A implies B which the author fails to cover. It's the equivalent of: "my Smart Car has four wheels, therefore, my Smart Car performs exactly like a Ferrari."I think the article has a paucity of research to prove such a radically anti-research conjecture (and anti-experience).References:1. Thorogood M, Appleby PN, Key TJ, Mann J. Relation between body mass index and mortality in an unusually slim cohort. J Epidemiol Community Health. 2003 Feb;57(2):130-3.2. Habito RC, Ball MJ. Postprandial changes in sex hormones after meals of different composition. Metabolism. 2001 May;50(5):505-11.3. Key TJ, Roe L, Thorogood M, Moore JW, Clark GM, Wang DY. Testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, calculated free testosterone, and oestradiol in male vegans and omnivores. Br J Nutr. 1990 Jul;64(1):111-9.4. Howie BJ, Shultz TD. Dietary and hormonal interrelationships among vegetarian Seventh-Day Adventists and nonvegetarian men. Am J Clin Nutr. 1985 Jul;42(1):127-34.5. Allen NE, Appleby PN, Davey GK, Key TJ. Hormones and diet: low insulin-like growth factor-I but normal bioavailable androgens in vegan men. Br J Cancer. 2000 Jul;83(1):95-7.6. Allen NE, Appleby PN, Davey GK, Kaaks R, Rinaldi S, Key TJ. The associations of diet with serum insulin-like growth factor I and its main binding proteins in 292 women meat-eaters, vegetarians, and vegans. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 Nov;11(11):1441-8.7. McCarty MF. Hepatic monitoring of essential amino acid availability may regulate IGF-I activity, thermogenesis, and fatty acid oxidation/synthesis. Med Hypotheses. 2001 Feb;56(2):220-4.8. Takenaka A, Oki N, Takahashi SI, Noguchi T. Dietary restriction of single essential amino acids reduces plasma insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) but does not affect plasma IGF-binding protein-1 in rats. J Nutr. 2000 Dec;130(12):2910-4.9. Noguchi T. Protein nutrition and insulin-like growth factor system. Br J Nutr. 2000 Dec;84 Suppl 2:S241-4. Review.10. McCarty MF. A low-fat, whole-food vegan diet, as well as other strategies that down-regulate IGF-I activity, may slow the human aging process. Med Hypotheses. 2003 Jun;60(6):784-92.11. Mezzano D, Kosiel K, Martinez C, Cuevas A, Panes O, Aranda E, Strobel P, Perez DD, Pereira J, Rozowski J, Leighton F. Cardiovascular risk factors in vegetarians. Normalization of hyperhomocysteinemia with vitamin B(12) and reduction of platelet aggregation with n-3 fatty acids. Thromb Res. 2000 Nov 1;100(3):153-60.12. Harman SK, Parnell WR. The nutritional health of New Zealand vegetarian and non-vegetarian Seventh-day Adventists: selected vitamin, mineral and lipid levels. N Z Med J. 1998 Mar 27;111(1062):91-4.13. Donovan UM, Gibson RS. Dietary intakes of adolescent females consuming vegetarian, semi-vegetarian, and omnivorous diets. J Adolesc Health. 1996 Apr;18(4):292-300.14. Janelle KC, Barr SI. Nutrient intakes and eating behavior scores of vegetarian and nonvegetarian women. J Am Diet Assoc. 1995 Feb;95(2):180-6, 189, quiz 187-8.15. Larsson CL, Johansson GK. Dietary intake and nutritional status of young vegans and omnivores in Sweden. Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Jul;76(1):100-6.16. Krajcovicova-Kudlackova M, Blazicek P, Kopcova J, Bederova A, Babinska K. Homocysteine levels in vegetarians versus omnivores. Ann Nutr Metab. 2000;44(3):135-8.17. Alexander D, Ball MJ, Mann J. Nutrient intake and haematological status of vegetarians and age-sex matched omnivores. Eur J Clin Nutr. 1994 Aug;48(8):538-46.18. Bissoli L, Di Francesco V, Ballarin A, Mandragona R, Trespidi R, Brocco G, Caruso B, Bosello O, Zamboni M. Effect of vegetarian diet on homocysteine levels. Ann Nutr Metab. 2002;46(2):73-9.19. Rauma AL, Torronen R, Hanninen O, Mykkanen H. Vitamin B-12 status of long-term adherents of a strict uncooked vegan diet ("living food diet") is compromised. J Nutr. 1995 Oct;125(10):2511-5.20. Lightowler HJ, Davies GJ. Micronutrient intakes in a group of UK vegans and the contribution of self-selected dietary supplements. J R Soc Health. 2000 Jun;120(2):117-24.21. Lithell H, Vessby B, Hellsing K, Ljunghall K, Hoglund NJ, Werner I, Bruce A. Changes in metabolism during a fasting period and a subsequent vegetarian diet with particular reference to glucose metabolism. Ups J Med Sci. 1983;88(2):109-19.22. Sanders TA. Growth and development of British vegan children. Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Sep;48(3 Suppl):822-5.23. Sanders TA, Purves R. An anthropometric and dietary assessment of the nutritional status of vegan preschool children. J Hum Nutr. 1981 Oct;35(5):349-57.24. Hellebostad M, Markestad T, Seeger Halvorsen K. Vitamin D deficiency rickets and vitamin B12 deficiency in vegetarian children. Acta Paediatr Scand. 1985 Mar;74(2):191-5.25. Ashkenazi S, Weitz R, Varsano I, Mimouni M. Vitamin B12 deficiency due to a strictly vegetarian diet in adolescence. Clin Pediatr (Phila). 1987 Dec;26(12):662-3.26. Iamaroon A, Linpisarn S, Kuansuwan C. Iron and vitamin B12 deficiency anaemia in a vegetarian: a diagnostic approach by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay and radioimmunoassay. Dent Update. 2002 Jun;29(5):223-4.27. O'Gorman P, Holmes D, Ramanan AV, Bose-Haider B, Lewis MJ, Will A. Dietary vitamin B12 deficiency in an adolescent white boy. J Clin Pathol. 2002 Jun;55(6):475-6.28. von Schenck U, Bender-Gotze C, Koletzko B. Persistence of neurological damage induced by dietary vitamin B-12 deficiency in infancy. Arch Dis Child. 1997 Aug;77(2):137-9. Review.29. Herrmann W, Geisel J. Vegetarian lifestyle and monitoring of vitamin B-12 status. Clin Chim Acta. 2002 Dec;326(1-2):47-59. Review.30. Hokin BD, Butler T. Cyanocobalamin (vitamin B-12) status in Seventh-day Adventist ministers in Australia. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Sep;70(3 Suppl):576S-578S.31. Mann NJ, Li D, Sinclair AJ, Dudman NP, Guo XW, Elsworth GR, Wilson AK, Kelly FD. The effect of diet on plasma homocysteine concentrations in healthy male subjects. Eur J Clin Nutr. 1999 Nov;53(11):895-9.32. Waldmann A, Koschizke JW, Leitzmann C, Hahn A. Homocysteine and cobalamin status in German vegans. Public Health Nutr. 2004 May;7(3):467-72. 33. Herrmann W, Schorr H, Obeid R, Geisel J. Vitamin B-12 status, particularly holotranscobalamin II and methylmalonic acid concentrations, and hyperhomocysteinemia in vegetarians. Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Jul;78(1):131-6.34. Herrmann W, Schorr H, Purschwitz K, Rassoul F, Richter V. Total homocysteine, vitamin B(12), and total antioxidant status in vegetarians. Clin Chem. 2001 Jun;47(6):1094-101.35. Sanders TA, Ellis FR, Dickerson JW. Haematological studies on vegans. Br J Nutr. 1978 Jul;40(1):9-15.36. Krajcovicova-Kudlackova M, Blazicek P, Babinska K, Kopcova J, Klvanova J, Bederova A, Magalova T. Traditional and alternative nutrition--levels of homocysteine and lipid parameters in adults. Scand J Clin Lab Invest. 2000 Dec;60(8):657-64.37. Strucinska M. Vegetarian diets of breastfeeding women in the light of dietary recommendations. Rocz Panstw Zakl Hig. 2002;53(1):65-79. Review.38. Shultz TD, Leklem JE. Nutrient intake and hormonal status of premenopausal vegetarian Seventh-day Adventists and premenopausal nonvegetarians. Nutr Cancer. 1983;4(4):247-59.39. Agren JJ, Tormala ML, Nenonen MT, Hanninen OO. Fatty acid composition of erythrocyte, platelet, and serum lipids in strict vegans. Lipids. 1995 Apr;30(4):365-9.40. Roshanai F, Sanders TA. Assessment of fatty acid intakes in vegans and omnivores. Hum Nutr Appl Nutr. 1984 Oct;38(5):345-54.41. Steele M, Yokum D, Armstrong A. Efficacy of intraperitoneal amino acid (IPAA) dialysate in an Asian vegetarian patient with chronic hypoalbuminaemia. EDTNA ERCA J. 1998 Apr-Jun;24(2):28-32.42. Shultz TD, Leklem JE. Nutrient intake and hormonal status of premenopausal vegetarian Seventh-day Adventists and premenopausal nonvegetarians. Nutr Cancer. 1983;4(4):247-59.43. Ball MJ, Bartlett MA. Dietary intake and iron status of Australian vegetarian women. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Sep;70(3):353-8.44. Laidlaw SA, Shultz TD, Cecchino JT, Kopple JD. Plasma and urine taurine levels in vegans. Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Apr;47(4):660-3.45. Rana SK, Sanders TA. Taurine concentrations in the diet, plasma, urine and breast milk of vegans compared with omnivores. Br J Nutr. 1986 Jul;56(1):17-27.46. Okuda T, Miyoshi-Nishimura H, Makita T, Sugawa-Katayama Y, Hazama T, Simizu T, Yamaguchi Y. Protein metabolism in vegans. Ann Physiol Anthropol. 1994 Nov;13(6):393-401.47. Donaldson MS. Metabolic vitamin B12 status on a mostly raw vegan diet with follow-up using tablets, nutritional yeast, or probiotic supplements. Ann Nutr Metab. 2000;44(5-6):229-34.48. Acosta PB. Availability of essential amino acids and nitrogen in vegan diets. Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Sep;48(3 Suppl):868-74. Review.49. Vargas E, Bressani R, Navarrete DA, Braham JE, Elias LG. A new alternative for estimating recommendations of protein intake in humans. Protein requirements of an adult population fed with a diet based on rice and beans. Arch Latinoam Nutr. 1985 Sep;35(3):394-405.50. Massa G, Vanoppen A, Gillis P, Aerssens P, Alliet P, Raes M. Protein malnutrition due to replacement of milk by rice drink. Eur J Pediatr. 2001 Jun;160(6):382-4.51. Caso G, Scalfi L, Marra M, Covino A, Muscaritoli M, McNurlan MA, Garlick PJ, Contaldo F. Albumin synthesis is diminished in men consuming a predominantly vegetarian diet. J Nutr. 2000 Mar;130(3):528-33.
I couldn't get through the entire article. Had to give up half way through.I saw this: "Tomato is a complete protein"Faith in humanity -1 point.Give up and go home cause this one's fubar.
I'm seeing a pattern here: Declare something to be dumb without bothering to look at the explanation which is readily provided.In my article, I show that tomatoes (and other plant foods) are complete proteins because they exceed the minimum for each essential amino acid, using the amino acid requirements as published by the World Health Organization and the amino acid content of food as listed in the USDA's nutrient database. I put the data into a table, and I cited my sources. I would ask whether you think the WHO's figures are wrong, or the USDA's figures are wrong, but you apparently didn't even get to the point of even seeing what my sources were. Maybe you also didn't see the plethora of medical doctors and registered dietitians I quoted who concur that plant proteins are indeed complete.It's disappointing that your faith in humanity is shaken when you see someone being faithful to what the science actually says. Does this mean that your confidence in humanity is high when people rely on superstition and opinion instead of science?
*sigh*Could you please stop saying that tomato is a protein... Even the tomatoes are confused at this point.Some would call this nitpicking, but if you at least corrected the statement to tomato containing protein and not being one I would not have such a hard time reading it. Likewise, meat is not a vitamin, as you put it. Unless I woke up on the wrong side of reality today, in which case I'll proceed with this new logic and call potato a microphone. (Btw Kiefer: Loving the upgraded sound quality on your new potato)
Sorry for the delay, but it took me a while before I had time to review the references that were posted — though even so, I stopped looking at them because they generally didn't support what was claimed or they were irrelevant to the topic at hand.
DH Kiefer wrote:I see some interesting misrepresentations on this critique of vegetarian and vegan diets for muscle building. First I agree that a vegetable based diet can provide the RDA for protein. Which, as is referenced later in the author's article, is half of what it takes for a novice bodybuilding to only maintain muscle mass, not build (see his references 15 and 16). I didn't read the whole article yet, but for what it claims to prove, to be honest, the reference list is short to compel any sort of belief that one can build substantial amounts of muscle on a massively vegetable based diet.(1) Nowhere did I insist that the RDA was all that was needed to build muscle. What I actually did was to review the various levels that have been studied and recommended. As I cited, in one study, the subjects did indeed build muscle at only the RDA level. I cited another study which found the level needed for bodybuilders was between the RDA and the official recommendation. And finally, I cited the official recommendation which, as you said, is indeed about twice the RDA.(2) The overwhelming point of the article, illustrated with a nice chart, and accompanied with a nice calculator, is that protein needs are easily met with plant foods, even for athletes. The official recommendation for athletes works out to about 11-16% protein. And the average of every plant food group supplies at least that much or more, with the exception of fruit.(3) It's not the quantity of footnotes that matters, it's the quality. For seeing whether veg. diets provide adequate protein for a given group, we need know only two things: (a) How much protein is needed, and (b) How much is in the food. That's what I supplied. That's supplemented with a separate article which cites numerous studies which found no performance penalty with veg*n diets.DH Kiefer wrote:The onus here is clearly on the vegan community to prove via controlled studies that you can increase muscles to their maximum potential in the same timeframe as with animal based proteins. That would prove definitively the point of this article.I call Strawman. The actual point of the article is to show how plant foods supply more than enough protein. The only concern one ever hears in relation to veg*ns and muscle-building is protein, and that's what the article addressed. You're expanding the critique to include a number of other, more esoteric reasons why you doubt the efficacy of veg*n muscle-building, which I'll address presently, but for now, the point was that getting enough protein is not the barrier that many seem to think it is.Also, concerning muscle-building, I never used the words "maximum potential" or "same timeframe", so that's another strawman. It may indeed be the case that veg*ns build muscle a little slower or not to the max, but we don't know, because there's a dearth of research on the subject.DH Kiefer wrote:1. 30% of vegetarians are under-weight[1]I'm sorry but this is just absolute B.S. The paper you cited says nothing of the sort. Underweight is <18.5% BMI[1]. Table 3 goes down only as far as 20% BMI, which is well within the "normal range". The table shows that 13.7% of the veg. women and 26.7% of the veg. men were 20% BMI or below, so it's impossible that 30% were below 18.5% BMI.If we're talking about onus, then there's certainly an onus on someone making the incredible contention that a whopping 30%(!) of vegetarians are underweight. Why would you cite only a single study about vegetarians and weight status when there are over 40 available? Probably because none of them, including the lone study you cited, backs your claim.What the science *actually* says about vegetarians and weight is the complete opposite. Most studies show vegetarians to be mildly lighter, and nearly half of the studies "did not show a significantly lower weight among vegetarians". That's what a review of a whole slew of 40 separate published studies found.[2]DH Kiefer wrote:3. Vegetarians (and especially vegans) are deficient in vitamin B12[11-35] (this one's rock solid)],No, it's nowhere near "rock solid", at least not as stated. You could claim that veg*ns are *more likely* to be deficient, but saying that *all* of them actually are is just wrong. And here again, your citations don't come close to supporting your claim: [11] Found that injecting B12 into vegetarians improved their B12 level. Said absolutely nothing about the prevalence of B12 deficiency in veg*ns. [12] "Even though the dietary vitamin B12 intake was significantly lower (p < 0.01) in the vegetarian group both vegetarians and non-vegetarians recorded similar serum vitamin B12 levels." That's the exact opposite of what was claimed! [13] "Results: More LOV and SV...had higher probability estimates of inadequacy for protein, calcium, iron, zinc, and riboflavin than OM." Says nothing about B12. Maybe it's buried somewhere in the study (I can see only the first page without paying for it), but I doubt it. And here I stop checking. LIke I said earlier, it's not the quantity of sources that matter, it's the quality. You can bombard the reader by spitting out dozens of references, but when those references are checked and they don't hold up to any scrutiny, it's not compelling.And as far as B12 goes, all veg*ns (and everyone over 50, vegan or not) is supposed to supplement with B12 anyway. Are you suggesting that it's impossible for veg*ns to supplement? If not, then why even bring up B12 in the first place?Anyway, in the absence of definitive research that says that vegans either can or can't build muscle, I thought that the decent number of vegan bodybuilders would tell us something. But no, you just dismissed that:DH Kiefer wrote:This would lead one to conclude that examples of free-living vegan bodybuilders with any appreciable mass are exceptional cases (and who knows why: drug use, sneaking high-quality protein, supplementation, genetics or what not).Ugh. First of all, why would (plant-based) supplementation invalidate the claim that vegans can build muscle, especially given that most NON-VEGAN bodybuilders supplement as well? What, meat-eaters are allowed to supplement but vegans are not, and that somehow proves the superiority of a meat-inclusive diet?In conclusion, my article was only about the adequacy of plant foods to supply sufficient protein. I admit it's certainly *possible* that there are other factors that hinder muscle development in veg*ns, but there is certainly no definitive research that says so. The conjecture that vegans can't build muscle well isn't compelling to me in light of the poor quality of the references I did examine, combined with the existence of a the decent number of vegan bodybuilders who are doing exactly what you dismiss. Those actual humans suggest to me that vegans can and *do* build muscle.[1] World Health Organisation, BMI Classification, 1995, 2000, and 2004[2] Susan E. Berkow, PhD, CNS and Neal Barnard, MD, Vegetarian Diets and Weight Status, Nutrition Reviews, Vol. 64, No. 4, April 2006, 175-188
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