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What are our best options? True Nutrition has cyclic dextrins, whey and casein hydrosylates, and pretty much anything else you could want.For some one who powerlifts and wants to remain about the same weight, but speed recovery, what would be an optimal protocol?I have tried to read up on this as much as possible on the forums, but most of you guys are much more knowledgeable than me.Thanks
Well for a powerlifter Id say that all the expensive carb powders are practically useless *waits for flame war* Id venture that if you are not currently taking creatine thatd be a good start. I think a BCAA mixture like Xtend is about all you need intra workout if you are at all worried about muscle catabolism (do you train fasted?). You could add some whey or casein hydrolysates if you need more protein in your day. And if your carb allowance is such that you could spare 20g or so of dextrose you could try chucking that in with your workout drink as well. Other than that as a powerlifter what else can you do for recovery? Anything that fights inflamation is going to help a lot. Fish Oil being number one, maybe Curcumin. Recovery work/GPP? Walking and sled work for increased blood flow to the worked muscles on a seperate day. Contrast showers, massage, SMFR etc.
(Takes the bait) Glitche what makes you think carb powders are useless for powerlifters?
haha! Notice I mentioned expensive carb powders to start? I think carbs and glycogen replacement is very over rated in most strength/muscle gaining endevours but especially so in powerlifting. Most of the work a powerlifter does is in the lower rep ranges and is more dependant on ATP than any other energy source. So if carbs are needed its in small amounts, and much like how cheap creatine monohydrate works fine so does cheap dextrose. The benefit of the high molecular weight carb powders is primarily gastric emptying and speed of glycogen replacement. Not really a concern. I train primarily for strength and the bulk of my work is done in the <5 rep bracket. I can blaze through 90+ minute training sessions without carbs/sugars. When I did train with carbs I had more trouble with bodyfat and less productive training sessions. Recovery was no better if not worse than it is without carbs. Backloading provides all the glycogen Ill ever need. Ill conceed their usefulness under the following conditions. 1. extremmely long (and more endurance orientated) training sessions. 2. when theres no other time to add calories. 3. when maximal muscle growth with no mind to fat accumulation is desired. None of which are likely to apply to Gulf here.
(Takes the bait) Glitche what makes you think carb powders are useless for powerlifters?
haha! Notice I mentioned expensive carb powders to start? I think carbs and glycogen replacement is very over rated in most strength/muscle gaining endevours but especially so in powerlifting. Most of the work a powerlifter does is in the lower rep ranges and is more dependant on ATP than any other energy source. So if carbs are needed its in small amounts, and much like how cheap creatine monohydrate works fine so does cheap dextrose. The benefit of the high molecular weight carb powders is primarily gastric emptying and speed of glycogen replacement. Not really a concern. I train primarily for strength and the bulk of my work is done in the <5 rep bracket. I can blaze through 90+ minute training sessions without carbs/sugars. When I did train with carbs I had more trouble with bodyfat and less productive training sessions. Recovery was no better if not worse than it is without carbs. Backloading provides all the glycogen Ill ever need. Ill conceed their usefulness under the following conditions. 1. extremmely long (and more endurance orientated) training sessions. 2. when theres no other time to add calories. 3. when maximal muscle growth with no mind to fat accumulation is desired. None of which are likely to apply to Gulf here.
just wanted to chime in... i think it depends on the individual and the weight they are moving. Me personally i quit taking dextrose intra workout @ 50-100g all together and on heavy squat or bench day, i'm pretty much done after heavy bench presses and squats (about 30 minutes 5-6 sets+rest), whereas when i used to have the dextrose i could still train with pretty high intensity for another 45 mins to an Hour @ <90%. I think it def. contributes to overall energy, in my own personal experience.Also there is big time differences in gastric emptying and osmolality of various carb powders... not only do you get the absorption speed, but you also get ease of digestion,less to no bloating, and it contributes to really high insulin spikes, which is sought after. Meadows Swears up and down about the branch dextrin and even Thibaudeau's old articles advocate hydro-whey+dextrin pulsing in many cases outside the gym to spike amino acids for growth (mag-10 / pulse).
I think it really depends on your training. I've competed in powerlifting and used several different training templates. I'm currently training for bodybuilding and I'm using John meadows for my training and nutrition. I'm using casein hydrolysate and cyclic dextrin intra workout and I do notice a huge difference in recovery and performance. That being said, the amount of work I'm doing currently far exceeds what I did when training for powerlifting. If save the carbs for post training unless your workload is enormous (20-30 working sets 4-5 days a week)
I dont disagree that youd find it more beneficial R. I dont think its the weight that determines your need for the carbs intra. More so the volume and reps being performed. If you are moving big weight FOR HIGHER REPS AND SETS then theres definately more of a benefit (not requirement) for a carb drink intra. The <90% is a big factor here. I imagine most powerlifters/strength trainers do not do max reps on their warm up sets. Certainly not all of them. Generally when I start getting to around 50% of my maxes the reps are already down around 5. We arent burning through much glycogen at that point. Maybe we go through a bit more at the end of our sessions with our assistance work but we hardly require intra carbs to complete a few sets of abs, reverse hypers, tricep extentions etc.
(Takes the bait) Glitche what makes you think carb powders are useless for powerlifters?
haha! Notice I mentioned expensive carb powders to start? I think carbs and glycogen replacement is very over rated in most strength/muscle gaining endevours but especially so in powerlifting. Most of the work a powerlifter does is in the lower rep ranges and is more dependant on ATP than any other energy source. So if carbs are needed its in small amounts, and much like how cheap creatine monohydrate works fine so does cheap dextrose. The benefit of the high molecular weight carb powders is primarily gastric emptying and speed of glycogen replacement. Not really a concern. I train primarily for strength and the bulk of my work is done in the <5 rep bracket. I can blaze through 90+ minute training sessions without carbs/sugars. When I did train with carbs I had more trouble with bodyfat and less productive training sessions. Recovery was no better if not worse than it is without carbs. Backloading provides all the glycogen Ill ever need. Ill conceed their usefulness under the following conditions. 1. extremmely long (and more endurance orientated) training sessions. 2. when theres no other time to add calories. 3. when maximal muscle growth with no mind to fat accumulation is desired. None of which are likely to apply to Gulf here.
I don't disagree that a bunch of singles, doubles, and triples require intra workout carbs, but there is more to powerlifting training than that. What about assistance work? I personally notice a big difference when I don't take carbs intra workout. Don't need much, just 25 g.
I dont disagree that youd find it more beneficial R. I dont think its the weight that determines your need for the carbs intra. More so the volume and reps being performed. If you are moving big weight FOR HIGHER REPS AND SETS then theres definately more of a benefit (not requirement) for a carb drink intra. The <90% is a big factor here. I imagine most powerlifters/strength trainers do not do max reps on their warm up sets. Certainly not all of them. Generally when I start getting to around 50% of my maxes the reps are already down around 5. We arent burning through much glycogen at that point. Maybe we go through a bit more at the end of our sessions with our assistance work but we hardly require intra carbs to complete a few sets of abs, reverse hypers, tricep extentions etc.
I think you fail to realize just how taxed the nervous system can become in performing 95% and 100% max effort lifts... especially when your training other body parts the same way. When you start the workout with the most important heavy compound lift, i.e. we can use bench press for example, Its hard to give 100% with the preceding work aimed toward bodybuilding / hypertrophy because energy is clearly going to be depleted. If your banging out 10-12 reps on the bench with 315 ( or even sets of 6) you will understand.... it's a lot on the nervous system.This is kinda where Dextrins come in... they are sort of the nucleotide of carb powders - they have multiple purposes, one of which, is to provide immediate energy. like the other guy said though, it's relative to training and what your moving and volume and all that ISH!
I dont disagree that youd find it more beneficial R. I dont think its the weight that determines your need for the carbs intra. More so the volume and reps being performed. If you are moving big weight FOR HIGHER REPS AND SETS then theres definately more of a benefit (not requirement) for a carb drink intra. The <90% is a big factor here. I imagine most powerlifters/strength trainers do not do max reps on their warm up sets. Certainly not all of them. Generally when I start getting to around 50% of my maxes the reps are already down around 5. We arent burning through much glycogen at that point. Maybe we go through a bit more at the end of our sessions with our assistance work but we hardly require intra carbs to complete a few sets of abs, reverse hypers, tricep extentions etc.
I think you fail to realize just how taxed the nervous system can become in performing 95% and 100% max effort lifts... especially when your training other body parts the same way. When you start the workout with the most important heavy compound lift, i.e. we can use bench press for example, Its hard to give 100% with the preceding work aimed toward bodybuilding / hypertrophy because energy is clearly going to be depleted. If your banging out 10-12 reps on the bench with 315 ( or even sets of 6) you will understand.... it's a lot on the nervous system.This is kinda where Dextrins come in... they are sort of the nucleotide of carb powders - they have multiple purposes, one of which, is to provide immediate energy. like the other guy said though, it's relative to training and what your moving and volume and all that ISH!
You make it sound like I have no experience with heavy weights. Do you train completely fasted and glycogen depleted? No? Well then what is wrong with the stored glycogen in your muscles and liver which is released to keep your blood sugar stable?
Glitch–What are your thoughts on hydrosylates throughout training without carbs? How much seems reasonable to you 10-20g? 242 lifter doing relatively heavy, higher volume training (at least for PL)
Glitch--What are your thoughts on hydrosylates throughout training without carbs? How much seems reasonable to you 10-20g? 242 lifter doing relatively heavy, higher volume training (at least for PL)
I like them for during workouts actually. When I have them Id usually have 20g or so with 2 servings of Xtend during my workouts. Unlike carbs theres plenty of more conclusive research that shows positive anabolic benefits to intraworkout protein.
I dont disagree that youd find it more beneficial R. I dont think its the weight that determines your need for the carbs intra. More so the volume and reps being performed. If you are moving big weight FOR HIGHER REPS AND SETS then theres definately more of a benefit (not requirement) for a carb drink intra. The <90% is a big factor here. I imagine most powerlifters/strength trainers do not do max reps on their warm up sets. Certainly not all of them. Generally when I start getting to around 50% of my maxes the reps are already down around 5. We arent burning through much glycogen at that point. Maybe we go through a bit more at the end of our sessions with our assistance work but we hardly require intra carbs to complete a few sets of abs, reverse hypers, tricep extentions etc.
I think you fail to realize just how taxed the nervous system can become in performing 95% and 100% max effort lifts... especially when your training other body parts the same way. When you start the workout with the most important heavy compound lift, i.e. we can use bench press for example, Its hard to give 100% with the preceding work aimed toward bodybuilding / hypertrophy because energy is clearly going to be depleted. If your banging out 10-12 reps on the bench with 315 ( or even sets of 6) you will understand.... it's a lot on the nervous system.This is kinda where Dextrins come in... they are sort of the nucleotide of carb powders - they have multiple purposes, one of which, is to provide immediate energy. like the other guy said though, it's relative to training and what your moving and volume and all that ISH!
You make it sound like I have no experience with heavy weights. Do you train completely fasted and glycogen depleted? No? Well then what is wrong with the stored glycogen in your muscles and liver which is released to keep your blood sugar stable?
Define heavy... if everyone else is doing it, it ain't heavy! lolI personally remain fasted for the day and take in about 250g carbs PWO & protein @ 290g/day currently.I feel that bodybuilding is kinda like digging a ditch... the deeper the hole, the longer it's going to take to fill it back up with dirt - by taking in hydrosylates intra and pwo and adding dextrins intra workout you are literally providing more energy, available rapidly, and also your fighting the catabolic environment you are creating by tearing your muscles down... it makes perfect sense to consume these supplements. This dramatically reverses the process and helps keep us more anabolic.... less muscle breakdown and faster repair - sounds good to me.
I take about 1/2 tablespoon of coconut oil pre-workout then intra i take SCIVATION Xtend(orange dream is my fav) and add 5g of creatine mono mixed in and sip that between sets.. has been doing well for me so far and its cheap. I found with taking nothing at all I have a lot more issues pushing out those last few reps.
I dont disagree that youd find it more beneficial R. I dont think its the weight that determines your need for the carbs intra. More so the volume and reps being performed. If you are moving big weight FOR HIGHER REPS AND SETS then theres definately more of a benefit (not requirement) for a carb drink intra. The <90% is a big factor here. I imagine most powerlifters/strength trainers do not do max reps on their warm up sets. Certainly not all of them. Generally when I start getting to around 50% of my maxes the reps are already down around 5. We arent burning through much glycogen at that point. Maybe we go through a bit more at the end of our sessions with our assistance work but we hardly require intra carbs to complete a few sets of abs, reverse hypers, tricep extentions etc.
I think you fail to realize just how taxed the nervous system can become in performing 95% and 100% max effort lifts... especially when your training other body parts the same way. When you start the workout with the most important heavy compound lift, i.e. we can use bench press for example, Its hard to give 100% with the preceding work aimed toward bodybuilding / hypertrophy because energy is clearly going to be depleted. If your banging out 10-12 reps on the bench with 315 ( or even sets of 6) you will understand.... it's a lot on the nervous system.This is kinda where Dextrins come in... they are sort of the nucleotide of carb powders - they have multiple purposes, one of which, is to provide immediate energy. like the other guy said though, it's relative to training and what your moving and volume and all that ISH!
You make it sound like I have no experience with heavy weights. Do you train completely fasted and glycogen depleted? No? Well then what is wrong with the stored glycogen in your muscles and liver which is released to keep your blood sugar stable?
Define heavy... if everyone else is doing it, it ain't heavy! lol
LOL. Big man you know I aint lifting as heavy as you but Im still squatting and pulling over 2-2.5 times bw. Id classify that as "heavy" relative to the rest of the training population.
I personally remain fasted for the day and take in about 250g carbs PWO & protein @ 290g/day currently.I feel that bodybuilding is kinda like digging a ditch... the deeper the hole, the longer it's going to take to fill it back up with dirt - by taking in hydrosylates intra and pwo and adding dextrins intra workout you are literally providing more energy, available rapidly, and also your fighting the catabolic environment you are creating by tearing your muscles down... it makes perfect sense to consume these supplements. This dramatically reverses the process and helps keep us more anabolic.... less muscle breakdown and faster repair - sounds good to me.
For you with your level of muscle mass and your current dietary setup it makes sense that youd benefit from those intra carbs. But youd probably also benefit from a pre-workout meal. Youd probably benefit from more overall calories.
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