Dead Lift

[joeyode]

I know there is really no substitute for the dead lift, but can anybody recommend something anyway?  Despite being careful and being instructed on proper form, my lower back does not seem to care for that lift.  Executing the form as called for in SW is particularly worrisome for me. Thanks

[IronFreakShow]

I'm not a professional by any means, so if I'm wrong feel free to correct me. I powerlifted for quite a while and I don't think you’re going to find anything else that will come close to mimicking a deadlift. I don't know your build, and with shockwave he calls for sumo and standard deadlifts, but I'm fairly tall, 6-0' with long arms. Conventional style deadlifts were always extremely hard for me to do, one for a severe lack of hamstrings when I started, but just because of my body type as well. I would work on developing your hamstrings, the reason you may be hurting your lower back is your hamstrings can’t handle the load you're trying to lift, so you straighten your legs entirely too soon. This places ALL the load on your lower back. I say all this because it was my problem for a LONG TIME. I worked on developing my hamstrings by doing light RDL's, rack pulls, lighter sumo lifts, hamstring curls and so on. Deadlifts are a back motion, but require tremendous support from your hamstrings, if those aren’t developed properly your setting yourself up for injury.

[bbuchan]

I'm not a professional by any means, so if I'm wrong feel free to correct me. I powerlifted for quite a while and I don't think you’re going to find anything else that will come close to mimicking a deadlift. I don't know your build, and with shockwave he calls for sumo and standard deadlifts, but I'm fairly tall, 6-0' with long arms. Conventional style deadlifts were always extremely hard for me to do, one for a severe lack of hamstrings when I started, but just because of my body type as well. I would work on developing your hamstrings, the reason you may be hurting your lower back is your hamstrings can’t handle the load you're trying to lift, so you straighten your legs entirely too soon. This places ALL the load on your lower back. I say all this because it was my problem for a LONG TIME. I worked on developing my hamstrings by doing light RDL's, rack pulls, lighter sumo lifts, hamstring curls and so on. Deadlifts are a back motion, but require tremendous support from your hamstrings, if those aren’t developed properly your setting yourself up for injury.

+1 I also am tall (6'3") and needed to strengthen my core and hamstrings significantly before my deadlift numbers started moving up and my lower back ceased hurting.

[joeyode]

Thanks for the input.  I am 6 ft as well, with a long torso and shorter legs.  Actually my muscle imbalances are probably w/ my quads, as my hams are relatively stronger than my thighs.  Of course, both are weak, so I'll keep working on building up the strength. 

[dmmethod]

I found this & I'm going to give it a run tomorrow. I'm 6'2″ with long legs & long arms. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BTQebgxi8A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[JudyMetcalf]

So I love to deadlift, its actually my favorite movement partially because I'm naturally good at it, and partially because its always been my strongest lift.  I have not been lifting for a super long time (4years) in comparison to some of the others around here, but I have been lucky enough to have instruction from some of the Powerlifting Elite (Dave Tate, Kroc, Wendler, Ladewski, Dizenzo) at the EFS Learn To Train Seminars, and I am an obsessive researcher.  I used to pull every week – but about a year ago by trainer took deads completely out of my program.  When I asked why his response (and I've heard/read this other places as well) was you don't NEED to deadlift and its rediculously hard on your central nervous system.My last meet was in April of this year, we tested my deadlift in February to see where I was after not pulling in training.  My previous 1RM from July 2011 was 335 (in between there I had minor surgery on my arms that prevented me from holding any kind of weight with my arms for 1 month).  We had only done speed deads (8 sets of singles using ~45-50% of 1RM) once every couple of weeks.  In February my 1RM hit 355.  At my meet in April I pulled 360 - again without training deadlifting.So, I have a couple of questions...1) Why do you feel you NEED to deadlift?2) Are you doing appropriate accessory work to focus on strengthening the T-spine, glutes and hams? ie: reverse hypers, good morning, RDL's, Glute-Ham Raises, etc3)  Where is your form breaking down?  Lowback pain while deadlifting is a sign of a form problem...and is probably fixable.. post some videos up if you canI watched that video - and the guy isn't a complete idiot - he definitlely has some decent pointers.Sumo Stance - ANYBODY with long legs needs to at least TRY pulling sumo (I'm a short girl myself so I pull stronger conventional - HATE SUMO lol)  My trainer and some of the other guys I know pull with their feet nearly touching the plates.  Sumo is a slightly different kind of pull though, so if you have never had coaching with that form do some research (highly recommend looking at some of the EliteFTS.com lifters videos)Not sure I agree with the palms up grip - I use a split grip just to keep heavy weight from rolling out of my hands, but putting your arms in that position puts you at a significantly higher risk of a biceps tear - the instinct to use your arms to help with that lift would increase significantly from that position.Rack pulls can be HUGELY helpful in getting down the appropriate hip drive timing of the lift...learning to snap your hips through at just the right time can make all the difference in the world (also means you have to be able to activate the glutes and hams properly though...)I definitly do NOT agree that every athlete NEEDS to deadlift - Squat YES, deadlift - unless you are looking to compete (and even if you are) you don't NEED to train deadlift.Just my two cents...hope this is in some way helpful

[thestiffmeister]

The dead-lift is realllly tricky, because you have to experiment with form to find out how to exploit your natural leverages best. I'm short with short legs, short arms and a long friggin' torso. My form would make most of you cringe but it works for me. My feet are kinda wide, back is rounded and I use a mixed grip. I have big spinal erectors though, which helps tremendously. I use my back a lot to get the weight slightly off the floor, then hamstrings kick in as well as the rest of the muscles involved in a DL.I've seen some tall lanky dudes using double under-handed grip which I find odd, but maybe it's another leverage thing.

[BostonBully]

So I love to deadlift, its actually my favorite movement partially because I'm naturally good at it, and partially because its always been my strongest lift.  I have not been lifting for a super long time (4years) in comparison to some of the others around here, but I have been lucky enough to have instruction from some of the Powerlifting Elite (Dave Tate, Kroc, Wendler, Ladewski, Dizenzo) at the EFS Learn To Train Seminars, and I am an obsessive researcher.  I used to pull every week - but about a year ago by trainer took deads completely out of my program.  When I asked why his response (and I've heard/read this other places as well) was you don't NEED to deadlift and its rediculously hard on your central nervous system.My last meet was in April of this year, we tested my deadlift in February to see where I was after not pulling in training.  My previous 1RM from July 2011 was 335 (in between there I had minor surgery on my arms that prevented me from holding any kind of weight with my arms for 1 month).  We had only done speed deads (8 sets of singles using ~45-50% of 1RM) once every couple of weeks.  In February my 1RM hit 355.  At my meet in April I pulled 360 - again without training deadlifting.So, I have a couple of questions...1) Why do you feel you NEED to deadlift?2) Are you doing appropriate accessory work to focus on strengthening the T-spine, glutes and hams? ie: reverse hypers, good morning, RDL's, Glute-Ham Raises, etc3)  Where is your form breaking down?  Lowback pain while deadlifting is a sign of a form problem...and is probably fixable.. post some videos up if you canI watched that video - and the guy isn't a complete idiot - he definitlely has some decent pointers.Sumo Stance - ANYBODY with long legs needs to at least TRY pulling sumo (I'm a short girl myself so I pull stronger conventional - HATE SUMO lol)  My trainer and some of the other guys I know pull with their feet nearly touching the plates.  Sumo is a slightly different kind of pull though, so if you have never had coaching with that form do some research (highly recommend looking at some of the EliteFTS.com lifters videos)Not sure I agree with the palms up grip - I use a split grip just to keep heavy weight from rolling out of my hands, but putting your arms in that position puts you at a significantly higher risk of a biceps tear - the instinct to use your arms to help with that lift would increase significantly from that position.Rack pulls can be HUGELY helpful in getting down the appropriate hip drive timing of the lift...learning to snap your hips through at just the right time can make all the difference in the world (also means you have to be able to activate the glutes and hams properly though...)I definitly do NOT agree that every athlete NEEDS to deadlift - Squat YES, deadlift - unless you are looking to compete (and even if you are) you don't NEED to train deadlift.Just my two cents...hope this is in some way helpful

Judy if I had to guess I would say that 99% of the gyms in the USA don't have a Reverse Hyper or GHR machine.  You must workout in a power lifting or some other sort of hardcore gym.  I dead lift every other week and either heavy shrug or power clean the other weeks.  If dead lifting is hard I would just start all over.  Go light and work up slowly making sure your form is correct.  I also would recommend against using a belt.  Not using a belt will help develop the core and other stabilizer muscles.  When the weight get heavy you can choose to use a belt.  If you aren't box squatting already I would start.  Use a wide stance where you feet are almost touching the sides of the power rack and use a box that is BELOW parallel.  Squat back and down till your ass is on the box.  No touch and goes either.  The tension has to be off your legs then explode up.  The box squat works hams, glutes and hips really well.

[JudyMetcalf]

Judy if I had to guess I would say that 99% of the gyms in the USA don't have a Reverse Hyper or GHR machine.  You must workout in a power lifting or some other sort of hardcore gym.  I dead lift every other week and either heavy shrug or power clean the other weeks.  If dead lifting is hard I would just start all over.  Go light and work up slowly making sure your form is correct.  I also would recommend against using a belt.  Not using a belt will help develop the core and other stabilizer muscles.  When the weight get heavy you can choose to use a belt.  If you aren't box squatting already I would start.  Use a wide stance where you feet are almost touching the sides of the power rack and use a box that is BELOW parallel.  Squat back and down till your ass is on the box.  No touch and goes either.  The tension has to be off your legs then explode up.  The box squat works hams, glutes and hips really well.

Up until about 3 months ago I was lifting out of Urban Active - big box gym...You can "jerry-rig" a GHR using the bench on a cable machine and a swiss ball...its not ideal, but if you lock your ankles under the knee pads you can get a similar functional movement to a GHR by keeping the hips locked inplace, using a controlled forward fall to the swiss ball (as you get better at this you can progress using smaller med balls, then eventually to the floor) and pulling back up to vertical using glutes and hams...most important is to keep hips extended....as far as reverse hypers, yeah, those can be tough, we actually use our 45deg back extension which happens to have a pad that flattens out on top for reverse hypers...seems to work ok.  There are a TON of other options for working those muscles to improve weaknessesI agree that form is the most important...if you're having problems its most likely form related.  Lifting more weight is a useless worry if your form isn't correct at the lighter weights.

[BostonBully]

Judy if I had to guess I would say that 99% of the gyms in the USA don't have a Reverse Hyper or GHR machine.  You must workout in a power lifting or some other sort of hardcore gym.  I dead lift every other week and either heavy shrug or power clean the other weeks.  If dead lifting is hard I would just start all over.  Go light and work up slowly making sure your form is correct.  I also would recommend against using a belt.  Not using a belt will help develop the core and other stabilizer muscles.  When the weight get heavy you can choose to use a belt.  If you aren't box squatting already I would start.  Use a wide stance where you feet are almost touching the sides of the power rack and use a box that is BELOW parallel.  Squat back and down till your ass is on the box.  No touch and goes either.  The tension has to be off your legs then explode up.  The box squat works hams, glutes and hips really well.

Up until about 3 months ago I was lifting out of Urban Active - big box gym...You can "jerry-rig" a GHR using the bench on a cable machine and a swiss ball...its not ideal, but if you lock your ankles under the knee pads you can get a similar functional movement to a GHR by keeping the hips locked inplace, using a controlled forward fall to the swiss ball (as you get better at this you can progress using smaller med balls, then eventually to the floor) and pulling back up to vertical using glutes and hams...most important is to keep hips extended....as far as reverse hypers, yeah, those can be tough, we actually use our 45deg back extension which happens to have a pad that flattens out on top for reverse hypers...seems to work ok.  There are a TON of other options for working those muscles to improve weaknessesI agree that form is the most important...if you're having problems its most likely form related.  Lifting more weight is a useless worry if your form isn't correct at the lighter weights.

Yea I do GHR's on a bench in my gym made for doing sit ups.  It has a spot to hook your feet and the angle can be adjusted.  It does the trick.  Like you said though reverse hypers are tougher to simulate.  I haven't found any way to do them yet. 

[joeyode]

So I love to deadlift, its actually my favorite movement partially because I'm naturally good at it, and partially because its always been my strongest lift.  I have not been lifting for a super long time (4years) in comparison to some of the others around here, but I have been lucky enough to have instruction from some of the Powerlifting Elite (Dave Tate, Kroc, Wendler, Ladewski, Dizenzo) at the EFS Learn To Train Seminars, and I am an obsessive researcher.  I used to pull every week - but about a year ago by trainer took deads completely out of my program.  When I asked why his response (and I've heard/read this other places as well) was you don't NEED to deadlift and its rediculously hard on your central nervous system.My last meet was in April of this year, we tested my deadlift in February to see where I was after not pulling in training.  My previous 1RM from July 2011 was 335 (in between there I had minor surgery on my arms that prevented me from holding any kind of weight with my arms for 1 month).  We had only done speed deads (8 sets of singles using ~45-50% of 1RM) once every couple of weeks.  In February my 1RM hit 355.  At my meet in April I pulled 360 - again without training deadlifting.So, I have a couple of questions...1) Why do you feel you NEED to deadlift?2) Are you doing appropriate accessory work to focus on strengthening the T-spine, glutes and hams? ie: reverse hypers, good morning, RDL's, Glute-Ham Raises, etc3)  Where is your form breaking down?  Lowback pain while deadlifting is a sign of a form problem...and is probably fixable.. post some videos up if you canI watched that video - and the guy isn't a complete idiot - he definitlely has some decent pointers.Sumo Stance - ANYBODY with long legs needs to at least TRY pulling sumo (I'm a short girl myself so I pull stronger conventional - HATE SUMO lol)  My trainer and some of the other guys I know pull with their feet nearly touching the plates.  Sumo is a slightly different kind of pull though, so if you have never had coaching with that form do some research (highly recommend looking at some of the EliteFTS.com lifters videos)Not sure I agree with the palms up grip - I use a split grip just to keep heavy weight from rolling out of my hands, but putting your arms in that position puts you at a significantly higher risk of a biceps tear - the instinct to use your arms to help with that lift would increase significantly from that position.Rack pulls can be HUGELY helpful in getting down the appropriate hip drive timing of the lift...learning to snap your hips through at just the right time can make all the difference in the world (also means you have to be able to activate the glutes and hams properly though...)I definitly do NOT agree that every athlete NEEDS to deadlift - Squat YES, deadlift - unless you are looking to compete (and even if you are) you don't NEED to train deadlift.Just my two cents...hope this is in some way helpful

... thanks, Judy.  I don't need to dead lift, but I'm trying the Shockwave protocol, and it seems to be an integral part of the program, at least for a day.  I usually pick programs that do not incorporate the dead lift, but I guess I want to give it another shot.  And I really would like to increase my overall strength, and I know the dead lift can be important with that goal.  I'm sure my form is not perfect, and muscle imbalances may be contributing to the problem, but I may just have some structural issues in my lower spine that may be not helping things either.  I started having back problems by my mid-20s (I'm 41 now), and it wasn't associated with strength training.  I noticed it first with tennis, as the twisting motion seemed to cause me pain.  I ran in my 30s, including several marathons and never had a back issue.  In the gym, I do have to be careful with heavy back exercises like BB rows, but as long as I'm careful, I seem to be OK.  In fact, I'd say strength training has helped alleviate some back issues, as I've noticed things like snow shoveling doesn't cause me nearly as much discomfort as it used to.  It's a couple of previous experiences with dead lifts that haven't gone so well.  I'll take it slow and light, try to get some professional consultation, and take it from there.  I may try the form from the youtube post as well.

[raisethebarbell]

Just my 2 cents, I got a big improvement on my deadlift “feel” when I started using an inversion table for mobility. These are the Teeter Hang Up type platforms that hang you upside down by your ankles. Feels like very good therapy for me and my lower back tightness.

[nickl413]

I know there is really no substitute for the dead lift, but can anybody recommend something anyway?  Despite being careful and being instructed on proper form, my lower back does not seem to care for that lift.  Executing the form as called for in SW is particularly worrisome for me. Thanks

Joeyode, I also have lower back problems and can not do heavy dead lifts.  I get around it by doing super slow reps with light weight.  My back pain literally disappeared the second I was done with the first set.  I started a thread to discuss super slow experiences  http://dangerouslyhardcore.com/forum/index.php?topic=2568.0  Also, if you have access to a trap bar that will take some stress off the lower back since the weight is off to the sides rather than out front.

[joeyode]

I know there is really no substitute for the dead lift, but can anybody recommend something anyway?  Despite being careful and being instructed on proper form, my lower back does not seem to care for that lift.  Executing the form as called for in SW is particularly worrisome for me. Thanks

Joeyode, I also have lower back problems and can not do heavy dead lifts.  I get around it by doing super slow reps with light weight.  My back pain literally disappeared the second I was done with the first set.  I started a thread to discuss super slow experiences  http://dangerouslyhardcore.com/forum/index.php?topic=2568.0  Also, if you have access to a trap bar that will take some stress off the lower back since the weight is off to the sides rather than out front.

I may give it a shot.  Whichever alternative I take, I'll have to take it light.  Unfortunately, no trap bar at my current gym.  Thanks for the suggestion. 

[Daveski731]

Well this is funny. Any high level athlete has said that the deadlift is a pivotal lift meaning that there is no replacement. Also everyone know the trick to movement is the posterior chain. the deadlift by means of biomechanics is the best recruiter of this. Squats do not compare. Someone with a heavy deadlift usually can squat alot also , the reverse does not hold true. Joey I dont know you body type. but i also feel lot of back pump. I know that my best form is with a rounded back, like Konstantinovs. I even have a huge leg drive. Sometime it just takes some more volume to get used to the pump. Stick it man trust me you will be happy. Also for eveyone else on shockwave. dont ever take out a pure concentric exercise when backloading is based on concentric contractions. Deadlift

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