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It would be cool if the Guru or a DH expert could chime in on this one or anyone with more experience: If you train chest/triceps on Mon and do BACK on Tuesday, would it be wise to NOT train The Tricep Long Head on Monday? Reason i am asking is because i gather that the long head is stimulated a lot by BACK exercises, due to it being attached to the shoulder and activated during overhead stretched positions. Would it be better to go heavy on a different back exercise, like a straight arm pull-down with a neutral/hammer grip? or maybe it just shouldn't be trained like a performance muscle.
maybe it just shouldn't be trained like a performance muscle.
performance muscle? I don't... but... how... where... what...?
It would be cool if the Guru or a DH expert could chime in on this one or anyone with more experience: If you train chest/triceps on Mon and do BACK on Tuesday, would it be wise to NOT train The Tricep Long Head on Monday? Reason i am asking is because i gather that the long head is stimulated a lot by BACK exercises, due to it being attached to the shoulder and activated during overhead stretched positions. Would it be better to go heavy on a different back exercise, like a straight arm pull-down with a neutral/hammer grip? or maybe it just shouldn't be trained like a performance muscle.
From experience, any triceps involvement on back day is minimal, unless you add pullovers or stiff-arm pulldowns... both exercises can engage the triceps, to some degree, no matter how stable you try to keep your arms. For back day, I'd be more aware of biceps involvement, but that goes without saying.I've run back day before and after a chest day, in the past, and have never had complications either way.That all said, one can NEVER have too much long head! LOL. It is the most prominent head of the triceps, even moreso than lateral head. It gives the tri's that "thick" look. It is like the upper chest, one can never have too much.Cory
It would be cool if the Guru or a DH expert could chime in on this one or anyone with more experience: If you train chest/triceps on Mon and do BACK on Tuesday, would it be wise to NOT train The Tricep Long Head on Monday? Reason i am asking is because i gather that the long head is stimulated a lot by BACK exercises, due to it being attached to the shoulder and activated during overhead stretched positions. Would it be better to go heavy on a different back exercise, like a straight arm pull-down with a neutral/hammer grip? or maybe it just shouldn't be trained like a performance muscle.
From experience, any triceps involvement on back day is minimal, unless you add pullovers or stiff-arm pulldowns... both exercises can engage the triceps, to some degree, no matter how stable you try to keep your arms. For back day, I'd be more aware of biceps involvement, but that goes without saying.I've run back day before and after a chest day, in the past, and have never had complications either way.That all said, one can NEVER have too much long head! LOL. It is the most prominent head of the triceps, even moreso than lateral head. It gives the tri's that "thick" look. It is like the upper chest, one can never have too much.Cory
I've gotten really good at reducing bicep contribution during back exercises, however you are correct in assuming i am performing stiff arm pull downs and when i row to the chest and squeeze the shoulder blades i feel long head work a bit... even when i do pull ups, i get my neck higher than my grip and hold the position for 2-3 seconds and i feel the long head working if i'm working hard.For me, training a muscle directly 2 days in a row is almost never a good idea, for over-training reasons. I don't want it to be like picking a scab and never being able to recover 100%
It would be cool if the Guru or a DH expert could chime in on this one or anyone with more experience: If you train chest/triceps on Mon and do BACK on Tuesday, would it be wise to NOT train The Tricep Long Head on Monday? Reason i am asking is because i gather that the long head is stimulated a lot by BACK exercises, due to it being attached to the shoulder and activated during overhead stretched positions. Would it be better to go heavy on a different back exercise, like a straight arm pull-down with a neutral/hammer grip? or maybe it just shouldn't be trained like a performance muscle.
From experience, any triceps involvement on back day is minimal, unless you add pullovers or stiff-arm pulldowns... both exercises can engage the triceps, to some degree, no matter how stable you try to keep your arms. For back day, I'd be more aware of biceps involvement, but that goes without saying.I've run back day before and after a chest day, in the past, and have never had complications either way.That all said, one can NEVER have too much long head! LOL. It is the most prominent head of the triceps, even moreso than lateral head. It gives the tri's that "thick" look. It is like the upper chest, one can never have too much.Cory
I've gotten really good at reducing bicep contribution during back exercises, however you are correct in assuming i am performing stiff arm pull downs and when i row to the chest and squeeze the shoulder blades i feel long head work a bit... even when i do pull ups, i get my neck higher than my grip and hold the position for 2-3 seconds and i feel the long head working if i'm working hard.For me, training a muscle directly 2 days in a row is almost never a good idea, for over-training reasons. I don't want it to be like picking a scab and never being able to recover 100%
If you feel your triceps working that much during a back day, then you might consider shifting your routine to compensate. Especially, if it is effective your recovery adversely, or you believe it to be.You might try paring Back/Triceps and Chest/Biceps, and put those days apart. I saw an interesting 3-day split in a Muay Thai book once:Monday: Chest / BicepsWednesday: Delts / LegsFriday: Back / Triceps...Monday and Friday were inter-changable, but Wednesday was ALWAYS Delts / Legs. Every other day was an off-day from weight training. They did not list exersises, just the split.You're right, it is not a good idea, except in some brief "shock" type scenarios / programs, to work a muscle group two days in a row. Over time, it is a surefire route to over-training or injury.Cory
You'd typically be fine with triceps one day and back the next, except that you're doing chest AND triceps in the same day, and a lot of chest exercises will involve your triceps, so in that way you could conceivably overtrain them.
You'd typically be fine with triceps one day and back the next, except that you're doing chest AND triceps in the same day, and a lot of chest exercises will involve your triceps, so in that way you could conceivably overtrain them.
i get what you are saying... I am doing extremely low volume right now - about 30% of what i normally do for chest/tri so i do them same day, my concern was just the actual training of back the day after a chest/tri --- > it's not that they get extremely involved in my back exercises, it's just the principal that to some extent they are doing some work a second day. That's why i was questioning, should i just not work the long head at all? That's the only part i'm sweating.... if anything i will just stick to medial/lateral head on monday
I wouldnt be worried about this honestly. If your Triceps are getting that involved in back movements you are obviously using too much weight for the target muscle anyway. Back down in weight and only go as heavy as you can feel in the appropriate muscles you are trying to train. Could be a form issue too. Check hand spacing and where your elbows are facing. More flared on straight arm pulldowns should help keep triceps out of it. Try to carry the tension through your arms on the biceps more than the triceps i.e. slight partial bend in the elbows instead of completely locked.If people got that bogged down in this muscle cross over with training splits youd be afraid to do anything! I mean yesterday was squats for me but I did arms the day prior. Guess what some of the muscles I am using to pull and hold the weight down on my back? You cant truly isolate a muscle so it becomes a matter of the degree of emphasis/stimulus put on it.
I wouldnt be worried about this honestly. If your Triceps are getting that involved in back movements you are obviously using too much weight for the target muscle anyway. Back down in weight and only go as heavy as you can feel in the appropriate muscles you are trying to train. Could be a form issue too. Check hand spacing and where your elbows are facing. More flared on straight arm pulldowns should help keep triceps out of it. Try to carry the tension through your arms on the biceps more than the triceps i.e. slight partial bend in the elbows instead of completely locked.If people got that bogged down in this muscle cross over with training splits youd be afraid to do anything! I mean yesterday was squats for me but I did arms the day prior. Guess what some of the muscles I am using to pull and hold the weight down on my back? You cant truly isolate a muscle so it becomes a matter of the degree of emphasis/stimulus put on it.
.I use the appropriate weight it's just with 2/3 second pauses it takes a lot to stabilize the weight when your on the last few reps... I mean I'm only using 70 /80 pounds on straight arm pull downs. form is my concern with any lift... Been moving heavy weight for years.... Injury free just to give you an idea thanks for all the input guys.. Nice to have a community of intelligent ppl to talk to.
When you say stimulated, do you mean like acting as a stabilizer?
stimulated as in, the muscle is being recruited to help out with thecan work load... That's the most general way i can put it. My main concern is the training of the long head two days in a row
When you say stimulated, do you mean like acting as a stabilizer?
stimulated as in, the muscle is being recruited to help out with thecan work load... That's the most general way i can put it. My main concern is the training of the long head two days in a row
If you are not training it directly then I dont see the concern. You will be working the rotator cuffs indirectly every day you train upper body movements. Id be more worried about maintaining the health of them over the long head of the Triceps. Theres a lot of cross over with muscle groups no matter what split you use. If you feel that the Long Head is getting too much work from back exercises (you mentioned holds at the top of movements) either strengthen the long head directly so it isnt the weak link anymore or modify your form/lower the weight to where its not involved as much. I dont think there is any more to it than that. P.S the Long Head is usually UNDER worked in most weightlifters and needs direct training to grow optimally. Typical Tricep exercises like Bench Press/Push downs dont hit it well enough. PJRs/French Presses/Overhead DB Tricep Extentions/Scott Cable Extentions are great for building size/strength in this portion of the muscle.
P.S the Long Head is usually UNDER worked in most weightlifters and needs direct training to grow optimally. Typical Tricep exercises like Bench Press/Push downs dont hit it well enough. PJRs/French Presses/Overhead DB Tricep Extentions/Scott Cable Extentions are great for building size/strength in this portion of the muscle.
This!Overhead work, b/c of the stretch position (I especially like Single-Arm DB Overheads). Close-Grip and Reverse-Grip Bench Pressing. Those are some fantastic options for solid Long Head development.Like I said before, just like the Upper Chest, the Long Head of the Tris can never have TOO much development, and is typically under-developed on most lifters. Usually, everyone has PLENTY of Lateral Head, and if they dip, Medial Head, too.Cory
Found this article on T-Nation. http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/building_bodybuilder_tricepsYou might just consider moving your back workout 48 hours later in the week, that way the triceps will be fully recovered from the start of your back workout, or you could switch from Chest and triceps to Back and triceps work. I've honestly never felt my triceps limiting what I can pull on back movements and heavy pullovers I utilize very infrequently as they don't seem to target what I want to hit, but everyone is different in how they feel certain exercises.
Found this article on T-Nation. http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/building_bodybuilder_tricepsYou might just consider moving your back workout 48 hours later in the week, that way the triceps will be fully recovered from the start of your back workout, or you could switch from Chest and triceps to Back and triceps work. I've honestly never felt my triceps limiting what I can pull on back movements and heavy pullovers I utilize very infrequently as they don't seem to target what I want to hit, but everyone is different in how they feel certain exercises.
Thanks, i will check that article out when i get a chance today. It's not that they limit me i just want them to be able to fully recover... I have good overall triceps development but looking to increase size further i realized this could be an issue in reaching those 19+ inch arms... Wouldn't hurt to move back to Wednesday though just in case.
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